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Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

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Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#121
post #32

I normally wouldn't weigh in here, since I am the furthest thing possible from an expert, but after even a little dabbling in meditation I can see some major misconceptions in the other comments. It isn't about being bored, or about any of the benefits that may or may not occur. Meditation is a useful discipline because it is about training the mind to (a) become conscious of and "reify" individual thoughts and sensa…

> become conscious of and "reify" individual thoughts and sensations

Those reified concepts (such as the 'Self') are useful in daily life. They are just concepts, abstractions that don't perfectly model reality, but they have their utility. Even the meditation practices need to be explained conceptually first, a paradoxical situation because we need concepts to go beyond concepts. Approximations are useful.

By the way, an anecdote: there is one meditation where you just ask yourself "Who am I?" and then wait and sense what you feel is your I-ness. By being mindful of that during all activities, it leads to a state beyond conceptual thinking, where the question "Who am I" becomes meaningless.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#122
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In regards to (a), isn't it more about not reifying your thoughts and sensations? This might be semantics though; I do agree that the path of not becoming a slave to thoughts and sensations starts with acknowledging them.

Semantics or not, that's actually a very important topic. From my limited understanding, the meditation approach would be to firstly notice the thought or sensation, but then to neither repress nor necessarily express the emotion further or get carried away with it. The rationale being that repression is a short term band-aid that does not allow for resolution of the issue, and can also be a way to conveniently trick…

Drawing parallels between meditation and reinforcement learning, I have realized that those thoughts we are supposed not to sustain (about the future and past) are simulations. We do model-based RL in our heads, simulating (imagining) future events in our minds, in order to adapt. So mindfulness is telling us not to simulate, and instead, just to perceive.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#123
post #83
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Once you have these skills you can (presumably) use them for other things and to achieve various effects. But it starts there. They said the same thing about brain exercises like Luminosity. The brain is way more complex, and you can't just hack your way to becoming the ultimate programmer. Perhaps there are legitamate factors that lead to unproductive and stressed out workers.

Well there are at least two differences: - There are a lot of scientific studies (however dubious, see the original post) about the effects of meditation: there are none about Luminosity. - Meditation has been practiced for millennia with entire cultures and philosophies built around it. Luminosity is a 6-year-old app with a good marketing team. Neither of these things are definitive proof of course. But I think they…

Just don't make your life about feeling a placebo effect, however cool, it should be just a curiosity, not a life purpose. If the meditator wants just to meditate and doesn't care to improve his studies, career or to have a family, 20 years later it would lead to a sad realization. You can't fill your stomach with prana and emptiness won't be your wife. We're living, breathing bodies, not just pure consciousness that is one with everything.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> obviously, some people are better at meditating This is not obvious to me. This is the message the meditation industry is trying to sell, and I'm not buying it. We have a long history in the West of selling pre-packaged individually-wrapped enlightenment products and claiming they come from the East, where enlightenment was invented. But that's marketing, not reality.

> This is the message the meditation industry is trying to sell, and I'm not buying it. Why do you find this hard to believe? Meditation and mindfulness is a skill, there are in fact various techniques or approaches one can take to improve the effectiveness. Being opposed to charging money for this is one thing, denying its existence is something else.

It really is a skill. You can get good at it in a very short time, or in a lifetime, or never.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good for you. Just because a person can do something fine by themselves doesn't mean that a service can't help other people. Some people can work out fine by themselves. Personal trainers help others. The existence of personal trainers doesn't stop anyone from working out themselves, and they do provide a benefit to some people. Why does a, say, app have to be telling you're doing it sub-optimally?? Why can't it be s…

> Why can't it be something that provides things like convenience or assistance Because the experience and practice of meditation is so entirely subjective as to make these claims absurd. What does convenience mean to meditation, when all that meditation requires is for you to be present?

> What does convenience mean to meditation, when all that meditation requires is for you to be present?

Reminding you to remain present. A guided meditation app can do that. That's convenience, but it won't meditate in your place.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#126
post #94

I have practiced meditation for 20 years but I still don't understand what is the purpose of emptiness (I mean I used to think I did but now I'm not so sure). What would be the purpose from a reinforcement learning point of view? A state where I have no likes or dislikes, no goal, no reward signals, where I feel no attraction or repulsion, where the distinction between self and other disappears. An uprooted agent dri…

Kundalini is a bunch of feelings?!?!

I haven't had a full-blown conscious experience, but I have been woken up in the middle of the night feeling like I've been connected to the mains, so much energy surging through me. I've had experiences in meditation where the energy was overwhelming and I've had to stop.

Could this be the gateway to some more profound experience? I certainly find it believable and intend to find out.

Re 'the purpose of emptiness' - I completely agree it's a difficult subject and I certainly don't claim to be all the way down the path or have all the answers. However, I've had glimpses. See my other comments.

Emptiness can have this negative pursuit of denial, but in fact I believe that's not the correct practice. Of course a person is a person, and trying to deny that is a fallacy. I think it comes from misunderstanding teachings. It can be useful to have a knowledgeable teacher to discuss questions like this so we don't stray too far from the path. Meditation is a difficult thing to put into words so it's easy to get the wrong end of the stick and sometimes stray a bit, especially when you take into account the confusion of translating subtle concepts between languages, and a lot of parroting from people with little direct experience. Still, the good news is there are more and more Westerners having experiences who can help clarify things.

Meditation should make our lives richer. Looking at my own past behaviours, I realised I do what I do because I want to feel amazing. Some part of me believes I should be able to have peak experiences, and meditation has given me some. This begs the question - is this yearning to feel amazing because it's possible to live like that permanently, and I intuitively know this? That'd be a game changer. I mean, if I naturally just felt totally contented and ecstatically happy (incidentally I didn't understand what 'ecstasy' meant until just a few weeks ago when I began to experience that too), how would I live?

I certainly wouldn't drift trying to be 'nothing'. I'd have to share it. Or enjoy it. Or do something with it I imagine. But it would certainly make my life richer and more enjoyable.

Right now there are a lot of people who claim to teach yoga but just know a few postures. Also, if we look to the past, many of the traditions have been kept secret for hundreds of years. I've heard rumours that some schools of Zen eventually secretly teach the microcosmic orbit to their higher-level students after decades of practice. I've heard of Eastern Taoists being astonished at some of the practices that Westerners know, saying that some of them are still highly secret in the East.

So one problem is in the traditions. You were expected to take this lifelong pledge to a guru who drip-fed you (partly because the student could be seen as the guru's 'pension'), and that doesn't work for us now. Some of the more effective practices should be taught earlier to give both sides of a practice, energetic and meditative, and so we are rewarded with improvements in our lives which stimulates more desire to practice. I put a link to the excellent AYP in my other comment and I really suggest you check it out for a complete resource.

But one thing is certain: Kundalini can in no way be classified as "just a bunch of feelings". You only need to read Gopi Krishna to learn that.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Meditation is the discovery that the point of life is always arrived at in the immediate moment. And, therefore, if you meditate for an ulterior motive – that is to say, to improve your mind, to improve your character, to be more efficient in life – you’ve got your eye on the future and you are not meditating. Because, the future is a concept; it doesn’t exist. As the proverb says, “Tomorrow never comes.” There is…

I know that high level meditation is supposed to have no practical purpose, but that is exactly what is bothering me. What would be the utility of that, from an evolutionary point of view, or from a reinforcement learning point of view (where we divide the world into agents and environment, with goals and rewards). The spiritual utility, as it is presented in tradition, is related to attaining some sort of freedom an…

Why does it need a utility? When one spontaneously begins dancing, they aren't thinking of some practical purpose or end goal, they're just doing it because it's fun and they're enjoying themselves in the moment.

Anyone who has felt the flow of music come through them and freely improvised, either as a musician or a dancer, is in what I would deem a meditative state. In that moment, they aren't thinking about anything other than what they are doing right then and there, and they're having a wonderful time doing so.

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#128
post #52

As somebody with clinical anxiety, I have been prescribed CBT and Mindfulness on the NHS, I think this piece misses several key points. For one thing, NICE (the UK NGO responsible for analysing evidence and making recommendations on the efficacy of treatments and their cost effectiveness) and an all-party Parliamentary group found signifcant evidence to recommend Mindfulness as a treatment for anxiety and mild depres…

I'm quite excited about CBT, but I think it's kind of a half-way-there step towards meditation/mindfulness, and in my personal case it actually was counter-productive in a way that meditation hasn't been. The core difference, I'd say, is that with CBT there is still too much emphasis on your thoughts. You're taught to use your own thinking to counter those thoughts, which is a bit like pulling yourself up by your own…

> But I'm even more excited about some of the 'newer' approaches under the CBT umbrella

Can you give examples?

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#129
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well there are at least two differences: - There are a lot of scientific studies (however dubious, see the original post) about the effects of meditation: there are none about Luminosity. - Meditation has been practiced for millennia with entire cultures and philosophies built around it. Luminosity is a 6-year-old app with a good marketing team. Neither of these things are definitive proof of course. But I think they…

Just don't make your life about feeling a placebo effect, however cool, it should be just a curiosity, not a life purpose. If the meditator wants just to meditate and doesn't care to improve his studies, career or to have a family, 20 years later it would lead to a sad realization. You can't fill your stomach with prana and emptiness won't be your wife. We're living, breathing bodies, not just pure consciousness that…

...what are you even responding to?

Re: Much of the research around meditation and mindfulness has serious flaws

#130
post #94

I have practiced meditation for 20 years but I still don't understand what is the purpose of emptiness (I mean I used to think I did but now I'm not so sure). What would be the purpose from a reinforcement learning point of view? A state where I have no likes or dislikes, no goal, no reward signals, where I feel no attraction or repulsion, where the distinction between self and other disappears. An uprooted agent dri…

In the literature there are several degrees of emptiness, but emptiness is something that you "find" as you progress through the path. People make this mistake where they think the quest for emptiness where one does not feel anything.

From my understanding, the closer you are to emptiness the less afflictions you have. This is extremely useful. To bring your point home, the happiest people I know are the ones who are less afflicted, mostly due to their meditation practice.

Of course, meditation practice varies wildly across the board, as well as the quality of the technique, teachers, practitioner, etc.

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