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Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

nytimes.com

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Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#121

Post by StavrosK »

curun1r wrote: post #95
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #40

Right now Nazism is rightfully consigned to the trash heap of history and mostly people don't talk about it in polite company. Communism should also undergo the same fate. It probably has the highest body count of any ideology (see Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro ) and is the only ideology where a country built a wall, not keep people from coming in, but to keep people from leaving. It has made millions of people misera…

I somewhat agree, but any connection between Communism and Socialism needs to similarly find its way to that trash heap. Communism's failing is its seemingly inescapable combination with totalitarianism and despotism, which was a significant problem with Nazism as well. It's not the principle that society is responsible for caring for and providing for it's citizens. For too long, we've resisted more socialist polici…

Exactly, and as a European I'd like to caution that this article plays into the "oooh communism isn't so great now is it" mentality that is prevalent in the US due to the cold war.

Let's separate the principles of a system of government with how it's been implemented, there's still a good discussion to be had on individualism vs society and the tradeoffs when forming governmental structures.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#122

Post by rvail2 »

coliveira wrote: post #26
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #4

You know I can't really feel their plight. Take this: >Hundreds of miles away, in Minas Gerais State, Dr. Jiménez, 34, found the work rewarding, but also began to harbor feelings of resentment. “You are trained in Cuba and our education is free, health care is free, but at what price?” she said. “You wind up paying for it your whole life.” Is that not the point? The communist government allows anybody to attend their…

There are many problems in Cuba, but what this article is saying is based on pure propaganda. Of course these doctors are not receiving money as they would in the US, this is the whole point of a communist system. In the other hand they didn't have to pay anything for education during their whole life, unlike the US where just a few people have the money and/or opportunity to go to medical school. It is just like goi…

Your response sounds a lot more like propaganda than the article.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#123

Post by oh_sigh »

throwawayknecht wrote: post #76
stretchwithme wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'If they do have to go to the hospital, they must bring their own bedsheets, soap, towels, food, light bulbs — even toilet paper. And basic medications are scarce.' 'In the real Cuba, finding an aspirin can be a chore. And an antibiotic will fetch a fortune on the black market. A nurse spoke to Isabel Vincent of Canada’s National Post. “We have nothing,” said the nurse. “I haven’t seen aspirin in a Cuban store here f…

The causality is not obvious. For example, throughout the 70s and 80s, organizations shipping medicine and other supplies to Cuba were regularly bombed or attacked (e.g. Hispania Interamericana). Anti-Castro terrorist organizations (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_66 ) operated openly in Miami. So does Cuba lack medicine because they're communist? Or are they communist because the US worked against broad pro…

Ok, that was 30 years ago. What's the explanation for why they haven't gotten aspirin to be readily available in the meantime?

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#124

Post by notyourday »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #62
notyourday wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlikely. Medical degrees from Cuba aren't portable what so ever. Cuban doctors are nowhere close to what Americans expect -- don't get me wrong, they are perfectly fine performing basic medical services but don't expect them to know how to use any modern equipment or be familiar with modern protocols used in the West. What is it far more likely is that those who actually live the glorious communist future would make…

>Medical degrees from Cuba aren't portable what so ever. Cuban doctors are nowhere close to what Americans expect -- don't get me wrong, they are perfectly fine performing basic medical services but don't expect them to know how to use any modern equipment or be familiar with modern protocols used in the West. Haha, what? Look up ELAM. There are ELAM educated doctors living and working in the US today.

Yes? And? ELAM degree does not allow one to practice medicine in the United States.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#125

Post by oh_sigh »

emodendroket wrote: post #87
throwawayknecht wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The causality is not obvious. For example, throughout the 70s and 80s, organizations shipping medicine and other supplies to Cuba were regularly bombed or attacked (e.g. Hispania Interamericana). Anti-Castro terrorist organizations (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_66 ) operated openly in Miami. So does Cuba lack medicine because they're communist? Or are they communist because the US worked against broad pro…

Even before taking that into account, an embargo with what would otherwise be their most obvious trading partner seems like a big impediment.

There's always Canada, Netherlands, Mexico, Venezuela, Brazil, the west coast of Africa, etc.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#126

Post by etplayer »

duckingtest wrote: post #100
ue_ wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's possible to critique both systems; the American (capitalist) system in which you need to pay huge amounts for education in order to have the mere chance to get a job that's above sustenace wage, the system screwing over especially those who can't afford to pay back debt; the Cuban system in which your training is free of charge but you cannot apply your skills such that you receive above sustenance wage.…

American medical system is not capitalist but mercantilist. It's illegal to offer services without explicit permission of the medical guild. It has the exact same effect all historical guild systems had: price gouging and reduced supply. Taxi licenses are another good example. Capitalist medical system would mean the value of a particular medical certification would be set by the market, ie. everyone would be able to…

>American medical system is not capitalist but mercantilist.

This distinction is made on the fallacious idea that "capitalism" is equal to a totally free market. This is a common confusion but false nevertheless. There is no reason I see why a capitalist system cannot include intervention by the government, and indeed it must deal with this to uphold property rights as even libertarian authors tell us.

Capitalism is the predominant employment of wage-labour, the private ownership of social means of production and the goal of accumulation of capital.

>Historically free market has always resulted in a much better quality in addition to lower prices.

It has also resulted in much higher rates of exploitation, as the workers of countries with more lax or unenforced labour laws suffer greatly for it.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#127

Post by wlesieutre »

nslav wrote: post #45
Klockan wrote: post #19

> The pastor was outraged to learn that, under the terms of their employment, Cuban doctors earn only about a quarter of the amount the Brazilian government pays Cuba for their services. This is how Sweden finances their free education as well, it is called taxes. The problem isn't with how Cuba treats specifically doctors but how Cuba refuses to let people emigrate in general.

Yes that confused me a bit as well... I work for a US-based engineering company and they bill clients 3 - 4x what I earn for my work. Am I misunderstanding something about the article?

If you feel like you're not being paid what you should, you always have the option of starting your own engineering practice instead of letting someone else decide how you get billed out and what cut you get paid.

Presumably these doctors don't have that choice; they get what the government says they get and that's that.

Of course med school in the US is far from free. Totally different system over there, if you compare a single part at a time of course one of them is going to look terrible.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#128

Post by etplayer »

adventured wrote: post #120
ue_ wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The very fact that we are talking about student loans, inflation, destroying the dollar and income (wage-labour) means that we are talking about capitalism; though other actors within a capitalist economy by virtue of having more military or property power may influence a capitalist economy, it does not change the fact that it is a capitalist system nevertheless. Nowhere did I claim that "free market" policies led up…

> The very fact that we are talking about student loans, inflation, destroying the dollar and income (wage-labour) means that we are talking about capitalism We're talking about government abuse of and intervention into a former Capitalist economy (which is now a heavily regulated, heavily taxed mixed economy). The US isn't even remotely close to being a free market system and hasn't been for decades. One quick check…

>The US isn't even remotely close to being a free market system and hasn't been for decades.

Where exactly did GP claim that it is? And why is regulation incompatible with a capitalist system? You are making the confusion that capitalism means "free market", when it doesn't.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#129

Post by arethuza »

throwawayknecht wrote: post #39
arethuza wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty common in professional services contexts for people to be charged out at least 3 or 4 times their salary.

Yeah, according to the article: > The World Health Organization, a United Nations agency, helped broker the deal. Under it, Brazil pays Cuba... nearly four times what Cuban doctors earn through the arrangement. Google makes $1,200,000 per employee; a comparable average salary is then $300,000, which sounds on the high end of plausible if restricted only to engineer salaries (and it'd be a very top-heavy average), but…

Google aren't in professional services though - which is a very different business model to what Google does.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#130

Post by wooter »

asdfjklasdfjkl wrote: post #83
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #40

Right now Nazism is rightfully consigned to the trash heap of history and mostly people don't talk about it in polite company. Communism should also undergo the same fate. It probably has the highest body count of any ideology (see Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro ) and is the only ideology where a country built a wall, not keep people from coming in, but to keep people from leaving. It has made millions of people misera…

There are more nuanced critiques of either of the predominant systems discussed in this comment section. If you want to throw unfair death totals for what are at best regimes loosely approximating their underlying communist or capitalist ideologies, you can just as easily claim capitalism kills tons. https://i.redd.it/h0l4hqcf5inz.jpg but honestly, I don't think body counts are the right way to judge either. Makes fo…

none of those things have to do with capitalism. those were all acts of government and the antithesis of free enterprise.
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