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Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

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Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#121

Post by 1337biz »

ng12 wrote: post #108
1337biz wrote: post #106

I don't like the idea that cheating is always a bad attribute. If a kid is able to play a game for its advantage and bend the rules, I respect that more than being able to follow the rules without thinking about how to get ahead.

Are you a proponent of larceny for the same reasons? Cheating is easy, not getting caught is harder. I'm failing to see how being a good cheater is admirable.

But not getting caught means you have gained the understanding when a situation is worth taking the risk. And this is something that you learn from experience and an important skill in life. It is not about cheating or the level therof. Only to understand situations where rules are in place and getting a feeling for when to follow them and when to break them. I think this is something very important to learn.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#122

Post by lotsofpulp »

xorcist wrote: post #80
bildung wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is people usually get better objective results if you praise their relative effort. Employers are obviously interested in grades that reflect the objective skill level of the to-be-employed. The problem is people subconsciously build up explanations for their observed performance. If a kid routinely has a hard time with maths, its more probable that they develop a causal model that puts themselves in a stat…

> Employers are obviously interested in grades that reflect the objective skill level of the to-be-employed. Employers are hardly interested in grades at all. Do you know anyone that does? Society uses grades as a selector for higher education pretty much exclusively. This is a goal for which we can objectively measure its relevance. I suspect there's a thing or two to learn from that.

Employers are interested in grades, just not directly. The higher education institutions from which they hire from are the proxy for grades. The target schools for attaining employment at certain firms and other graduate schools do the job of weeding out those with low SATs or grades or the wrong type of background.

An invididual's letter grades are not important, but selecting from a cohort of individuals that outperform others is important (also why it's important to be from that cohort). You're not aiming for every single hire to be successful (probably not practical or possible to invest enough resources to be able to evaluate that), but you can make the odds tilt in your favor.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#123

Post by nwah1 »

conductr wrote: post #73
nwah1 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some classes, where grades can be determined purely subjectively, instructors can use effort-based logic as a guiding principle. The problems, however, are multifold. I remember a high school art class where I just had a complete writers-block - or maybe artists-block - and was not able to do much on a large pencil drawing while sitting in class. I just couldn't work while seated in rows with everyone else sketchi…

Seems like a decent life lesson though. I wonder how this would have played out if you communicated with your teacher. Either telling them you were having trouble being productive in class, or When you turned in your work by telling him how much work you put in at home. It's important that you tell people how much effort you spend on things when they don't see it happen. It's true in so many ways; you learned it earl…

This was the story of my entire educational career. The gifted underachiever who instructors took a special interest in.

However, teaching people life lessons in the form of a permanent black mark on their record isn't exactly for their own good. For better or worse, those high school grades do actually matter for college admittance.

Yet, maybe they did me a favor. I was able to underachieve to my heart's content at a college full of dummies. Who really needs a prestigious college anyhow.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#124

Post by buxtehude »

AceyMan wrote: post #89

Having read the current child psych lit extensively, I can provide a boot-camp education on raising young'uns in one sentence: "Your children don't want to be praised; they want to be noticed. " 'Dad/mom look at me / watch me do this / see what I did in class', etc, etc. all signify this — praise isn't what their psyche thirsts for, merely plain old attention. Done earnestly, giving attention takes time, and so has a…

Thank you for sharing this - I just read the "Cat's Cradle" lyrics - a song I had heard all my life but never really stopped to think about. As a father of a 3 year old, I'm very happy to say I spend regular daily quality time with my son and frankly it's the best thing ever in my entire life.

If you have any favorite links from early child psych lit - please share.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#125

Post by AceyMan »

buxtehude wrote: post #124
AceyMan wrote: post #89

Having read the current child psych lit extensively, I can provide a boot-camp education on raising young'uns in one sentence: "Your children don't want to be praised; they want to be noticed. " 'Dad/mom look at me / watch me do this / see what I did in class', etc, etc. all signify this — praise isn't what their psyche thirsts for, merely plain old attention. Done earnestly, giving attention takes time, and so has a…

Thank you for sharing this - I just read the "Cat's Cradle" lyrics - a song I had heard all my life but never really stopped to think about. As a father of a 3 year old, I'm very happy to say I spend regular daily quality time with my son and frankly it's the best thing ever in my entire life. If you have any favorite links from early child psych lit - please share.

Off the top of my head, "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn is a seminal text in the field. "Parenting From the Inside Out" by Daniel Siegel & Mary Hartzell is wonderful as well.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#126

Post by rtpg »

Bjartr wrote: post #92
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lack ALL empathy for me when I am confronted with such a double fine. It was my wrongdoing, so I suck it up and pay up. I, an adult of sound mind and stable finances, occasionally forget to pay parking tickets on time. I am punished by a doubling of the fine. I deserve that punishment by breaking the law a second time, and I pay for that violation of the law by paying the double fine. It sucks but I move on. These…

The strawman here is the ticket & fine argument. Great that you can make an argument for how we should handle them, but it's not a productive argument because the goals of tickets & fines and grades are too different. Tickets & fines have (usually and for the most part, I don't doubt you could find some kind of counterexample) one goal, disincentivize the behavior that was ticketed. Grades serve multiple goals (and n…

I would say that even in the case of tickets, you can instill futility with the fines.

Many Americans spend basically their entire adult lives with outstanding fines against them, if only because it's not possible for them to ever pay the cumulative fines + subsequent punishments. Throw on issues like bail and you've built a system someone can fall into and never get out of

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#127

Post by NoIKnow »

AceyMan wrote: post #125
buxtehude wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for sharing this - I just read the "Cat's Cradle" lyrics - a song I had heard all my life but never really stopped to think about. As a father of a 3 year old, I'm very happy to say I spend regular daily quality time with my son and frankly it's the best thing ever in my entire life. If you have any favorite links from early child psych lit - please share.

Off the top of my head, "Unconditional Parenting" by Alfie Kohn is a seminal text in the field. "Parenting From the Inside Out" by Daniel Siegel & Mary Hartzell is wonderful as well.

Unconditional parenting hurts self-esteem, encourages immaturity and ill prepares children for life in the adult world. Alfie Kohn should retitle that book "How to Raise a Self-Centered A-Hole". Most things in life have strings attached - yep, love is no different. Try treating someone who loves you with a lack of regard, an emotionally healthy person will draw a line. Set boundaries, show disapproval or risk raising a child with an inability to emotionally regulate when things don't go their way as they so often do in life.

Unconditional love should only apply to achievement so the child will not fear that you will not love them if they fail to meet academic expectations. Instill essential qualities, such as hard work, discipline, patience, persistence, and perseverance then you give a child the tools to achieve their goals.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#128

Post by rleigh »

Noos wrote: post #104
nwah1 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some classes, where grades can be determined purely subjectively, instructors can use effort-based logic as a guiding principle. The problems, however, are multifold. I remember a high school art class where I just had a complete writers-block - or maybe artists-block - and was not able to do much on a large pencil drawing while sitting in class. I just couldn't work while seated in rows with everyone else sketchi…

Actually it's a good lesson I think. You can't really sustain what you did long term. You have to learn how to draw in every situation over a longer period of time to do well. You can't binge draw like this over the long term and be healthy; you could very well have not been able to overcome the drawing by talent alone and have been unable to seek the teacher's help through technique. Teachers don't just care about t…

The same could also be said of the world of work.

I have to write code in an open plan office which I find uncomfortable, noisy, distracting and without any sense of personal space. I'm vastly more productive at home. But I can't mess around at work all day, and then do all my productive work in the evening; I have to force myself to get to it.

Unfortunately, employers as a whole would rather see the appearance of productive work rather than create an environment that fosters actual work. It's alleged that saving money is the reason, but I struggle to see how the huge waste of human capital makes any rational sense.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#129

Post by Overtonwindow »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #14
Overtonwindow wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was the opposite. Good results were rare so a lot of focus was on praising my effort. That meant I put in enough effort to coast, having low confidence in my results. It's hard for me to learn new things now as well.

Basically, no matter what we do, our kids are screwed either way :/.

Point number 3 on my list of "why I'm never having kids". It really is a spin of the wheel as to where they'll land in life.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#130

Post by TeMPOraL »

Overtonwindow wrote: post #129
TeMPOraL wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically, no matter what we do, our kids are screwed either way :/.

Point number 3 on my list of "why I'm never having kids". It really is a spin of the wheel as to where they'll land in life.

What're the first two, if I may ask out of curiosity?
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