Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration • Hacker News Board

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#121

Post by mnm1 » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 11:38 AM UTC

mikekchar wrote: post #49

This is an opinion piece backed up with practically no information whatsoever. If you want to know about immigration policy in Japan, you need look no further Japan's ministry of foreign affairs website. For example, here are the categories where you can get a long term visa [0] You will notice there is a points system [1]. You need 70 points to get in. A degree gives you 10 points. A salary of ~$100K gives you 40 po…

So just be in your twenties with a degree, making $100k, and have 5 years of experience and you're in for five years. Why would someone like that want to move to Japan when they could flourish just about anywhere else in the world including many places where the business culture doesn't amount to white collar slavery? These are the same type of insane regulations the current administration is, appropriately, criticized for trying to bring to the U.S. Seems like an extremely high bar to me.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#122

Post by mikekchar » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 12:16 PM UTC

cattlefarmer wrote: post #110

mikekchar wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the Filipino nurse situation was a debacle (and for the most part continues to be). However, the government has been routinely extending visas for those involved [0]. The reality of the situation is that it is very hard to live here if you are a foreigner with that kind of job. In the town where I live something like 22 of the 130 or so foreigners who live here are Filipino nurses. I've met some who have stayed…

I'd love to hear about that free farmland thing you mentioned. I've spoken with a few entrepreneurs about trying to build something like a scaled up version of Farmbot [0] for small Japanese farms but most reactions I've gotten is negative. The councils don't want robots, they want young people back. [0]: https://farmbot.io

If you want to farm on some land, usually you can just walk up to a farmer and ask if they know anybody that would lend you some land. The going "price" around here seems to be a bottle of whiskey for the year. Of course the land owner continues to get the tax benefit (and you must have the land in production or else they will lose that). Not sure what it's like in other places, but it's quite easy get get land here (unless it is an orchard or tea field). But then I admit that I spend half my day chatting with the farmers near my house ;-)

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#123

Post by pyroinferno » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 1:45 PM UTC

forapurpose wrote: post #78

petre wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Eastern Block you had those two conditions checked and it didn't quite work out. This works in agriculture to some extent, but that's sector where automation already displaced most jobs and it will continue to do so.

> In the Eastern Block you had those two conditions checked and it didn't quite work out. The workers did not control the assets, unelected totalitarian dictators did, despite endless propaganda to the contrary. I'm not saying the idea works, but the Eastern Block was not a test of it.

Do you expect the rich of society to willingly just distribute their wealth? A powerful state would be necessary for anything like that to occur. And every single time this has been tried the state takes a huge grab at power and refuses to let go. This isn't because "REAL Communism" hasn't been tried, many people with their idea of what Real Communism is have tried it in many countries all with significant differences in their culture and power structure, but it all ends up the same.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#124

Post by pyroinferno » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 1:50 PM UTC

tanilama wrote: post #119

mikekchar wrote: post #49

This is an opinion piece backed up with practically no information whatsoever. If you want to know about immigration policy in Japan, you need look no further Japan's ministry of foreign affairs website. For example, here are the categories where you can get a long term visa [0] You will notice there is a points system [1]. You need 70 points to get in. A degree gives you 10 points. A salary of ~$100K gives you 40 po…

> A salary of ~$100K gives you 40 points That is incredibly high for Japanese standard... Even Google JP engineers might not be paid for that much, and they are the top of the food chain. Most engineers I know, their salary is around 40k-50k a year. Apparently, Japan doesn't want below exceptional engineers in their country, which is a fair requirement, but hardly a welcoming one.

>Most engineers I know, their salary is around 40k-50k a year.

Really? I was getting paid around that for my first internship. Do you live in the States?

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#125

Post by dgudkov » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 1:56 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #12

Japan is at the forefront of a post-industrial society. Much of the rest of the west would be in a similar position, if not for imported labor or outsourcing labor. China will be in a similar spot soon. Eventually all of the world will be where they are. The things and lessons they learn and discover will be useful to other mature economies soon enough. The headway will make them leaders in innovating in this area of…

It sounds like robot population started slowly replacing human population -- the former is on the rise, while growth of the latter is slowing down. Year 2017 may be recognized as the tipping point for this process in textbooks. Textbooks for robots, of course.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#126

Post by Markoff » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 2:02 PM UTC

neptunespear wrote: post #10

Automation has changed from when Japan was on top. The focus is now on software and open collaboration in a globalized society, not hardware built by factory workers with proprietary standards (looking at you, FeliCa) China may surpass Japan in the automation/AI sphere. Lots of young, English-speaking, western-educated workers, plus the PRC has already innovated so much in manufacturing, shipbuilding, etc., and an ec…

it's funny you mention open collaboration and praise China in same comment, while China is slowly shutting itself from rest of the world and literally none startups from China have been successful abroad where they don't have benefit of government protectionism

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#127

Post by derping69 » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 2:10 PM UTC

sumedh wrote: post #54

derping69 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the goal of mass immigration of unskilled workers isn't what's best for the country, its to bring in people who will be reliant on the government and thus always vote for more government, thus further consolidating power. Also has the benefit of driving wages down resulting in more natives being reliant on government. If we really needed more workers why wouldn't we incentivize our own citizens to have kids i…

> why wouldn't we incentivize our own citizens to have kids I am assuming by "incentivize" you meaning tax payer funded policies so are you ready to pay more taxes? If you are ready to pay more taxes but what about people who dont want kids.

That's my point, incentivize our own citizens to have kids using the money that would otherwise be spent on immigrants. Preferably you would make it a tax cut so that middle class would have kids.

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#128

Post by derping69 » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 2:13 PM UTC

StudyAnimal wrote: post #106

petre wrote: post #66

At least it's better than paying for immigrants that forced their way into your country as the Germans are doing now.

Go away racist. Refugees need a safe place and germany needs fresh foreign blood to keep its society running. It's a win win. German children are going to take a long time before they start contributing and even then they will end up on Hartz IV before they accept a normal job.

Instead of spending billions on refugees, 75% of whom still won't be working for years, why not spend that money to get Germans to have more kids? That would actually make sense, unlike importing unskilled labor that won't be needed due to automation.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/820480/Germany-migrant-c...

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#129

Post by Markoff » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 2:17 PM UTC

zxcvvcxz wrote: post #4

Makes a lot of sense. Why risk their cultural homogeneity - something clearly valued by the majority of Japan - if there are technological solutions to increasing productivity? Edit - why the downvotes?

you are downvoted because it's not politically correct to tell truth, you should promote multiculturalism and get enriched by car or bomb shrapnel hitting you

telling this as European whose wife is from China and she agrees with me that what's necessary are legal educated migrants, not illegal uneducated religious welfare migrants

Re: Aging Japan Wants Automation, Not Immigration

#130

Post by mikekchar » Wed, Aug 23, 2017, 2:23 PM UTC

hkmurakami wrote: post #115

cattlefarmer wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other problem is that many folks working unskilled jobs typically don't care to improve their lot in lives. I've been working on software for managing cattle farms with customers all across from Kyushu to Hokkaido and our biggest hurdle is that the employees simply aren't interesting in learning or trying to improve their lives. This extends to some farm owners even. Talk to them and all they care about is pachin…

Well employees probably wouldn't make more even if the owner made 59% more. Owners, I wonder if their lives are good Enough already that they really don't care.

> Well employees probably wouldn't make more even if the owner made 59% more.

I don't suppose you could explain that concept to the Prime Minister? ;-)