Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

peterturchin.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 189 posts

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#121

Post by willvarfar »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #114
ergothus wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just throwing out a question here - What evidence do you have for the order of events? e.g. "The government has taken on the role of "taking care" of your neighbor, so everyone stopped" - how do you show that it wasn't the rise of urban centers, where you had too many neighbors to care for, that led to government stepping in where individuals were failing? For each of the items you list, I can see it going the direct…

The 19th century in the US was the great age of limited government. It was also the period of the greatest outpouring of charitable giving the world has ever known. This was the period when the first modern nonprofit community hospitals were created. It's when the Carnegie libraries were built, huge numbers of colleges were built. It's when the society of the prevention of cruelty to animals was built, the first inte…

Britain led the way in that enlightenment e.g. The 1848 Public Health Act. Except in Britain it was government that led it. In the US, you had to rely on the hoping that some of the rich did good (today: Gates, Buffet?) whilst all the rest did bad (today: Koch, Trump?)?

This blame-the-government thing is uniquely American. In other parts of the world there are big governments that really help their populations thrive and live safely and comfortably (e.g. I live in Sweden).

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#122

Post by mythrwy »

At one point the US military borrowed binoculars from citizens.

https://clickamericana.com/media/newspapers/why-the-navy-wan...

It's hard to even imagine now. But presumably people sent them. They were helping. It was their war. Now the military probably buys 20 times the binoculars they'll ever use. At 20 times the price a citizen pays for them. And it's all run by career service bureaucrats. The taxpayers foot the bill but the specific expenses are unknown. And the war isn't the peoples war now. It's usually some kind of undefined action cheered on by think tanks and special interests and pumped up by news stories of terrorists. The citizens are mostly removed from the process, as it goes right on regardless of who they vote for. Unless they enlist, then they are involved, but that is less for principal now and more for a free college education or because what else to do?

This is what has changed in society. Life has become a faceless bureaucracy running on it's own agenda. Corporate, government, you name it. The concept of community is a pale shadow of what it once was. I don't know if this is better or worse, it's probably not great if your military has to beg for binoculars but seems the new hazards may be even more dangerous.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#123

Post by WillPostForFood »

tasty_freeze wrote: post #95
tomohawk wrote: post #72

Cooperation used to be by free association through civic organizations. As the government has grown in scope, it has eclipsed these, and it really isn't surprising that civic society has declined as a result. When people freely participate in civic activities, they are being generous. There is no coercion. When government does the same thing, it is coercive. The activity does not occur unless taxes are collected. Cho…

If there is a massive hail storm and my neighbor's roof is damaged and needs to be repaired, the reason all the neighbors don't pitch in and give him a new roof is insurance, not the government. You know, free market insurance. The part of your story about people pitching in has more to do with the skill sets of people back then vs now; even with all the desire in the world, I couldn't raise a barn. And in the case o…

The question isn't why we didn't repair our neighbor's roof (I wouldn't know how either), but why we didn't invite them to sleep at our house while theirs was flooding.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#124

Post by rmchugh »

tomohawk wrote: post #72

Cooperation used to be by free association through civic organizations. As the government has grown in scope, it has eclipsed these, and it really isn't surprising that civic society has declined as a result. When people freely participate in civic activities, they are being generous. There is no coercion. When government does the same thing, it is coercive. The activity does not occur unless taxes are collected. Cho…

So you are proposing that high cooperation is dependent on low government intervention. This seems incorrect. In Denmark for example there is a far more interventionist state than in the US, while membership of associations and clubs is also very high.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#125

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

cmurf wrote: post #108
wavefunction wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading stories of folks in hospitals and nursing homes left to die during Katrina. Or how many Congress people from a certain political party voted against helping out folks devastated by Sandy. In fact, the "greed is good, corporations are people, etc." mentality that promotes selfishness as a vice is a major plank of one of the main political parties of the US.

I think that's generous. If only it were limited to greed is good. This is about class, not merely greed. Class is the idea that some people are simply better than other people, be it by bloodline, family name, meritocracy. The preservation of the aristocracy is paramount, but right there along with it is aristocrats first, others second. Sometimes a distant second. If you have more money you get better education, he…

I honestly believe this is just people being people and wanting to maintain their quality of life for their children and grandchildren.

Tell me that if ever become exceedingly wealthy you wouldn't do what you could to protect your wealth. I know I'm doing what I can with what I have.

Only the extremly wealthy can be philanthropic to an extreme extent.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#127

Post by eponeponepon »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #125
cmurf wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's generous. If only it were limited to greed is good. This is about class, not merely greed. Class is the idea that some people are simply better than other people, be it by bloodline, family name, meritocracy. The preservation of the aristocracy is paramount, but right there along with it is aristocrats first, others second. Sometimes a distant second. If you have more money you get better education, he…

I honestly believe this is just people being people and wanting to maintain their quality of life for their children and grandchildren. Tell me that if ever become exceedingly wealthy you wouldn't do what you could to protect your wealth. I know I'm doing what I can with what I have . Only the extremly wealthy can be philanthropic to an extreme extent.

> Only the extremly wealthy can be philanthropic to an extreme extent.

So it follows that the normally wealthy can be philanthropic to a normal extent, then?

Separately, I have to admit I'm unsure if you meant to conflate philanthropy with monetary value.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#128

Post by ako »

tomohawk wrote: post #72

Cooperation used to be by free association through civic organizations. As the government has grown in scope, it has eclipsed these, and it really isn't surprising that civic society has declined as a result. When people freely participate in civic activities, they are being generous. There is no coercion. When government does the same thing, it is coercive. The activity does not occur unless taxes are collected. Cho…

It's called leading by example: do you want a government that shows people it's important to care about others, or do you want a government that doesn't care about it's people? A government that sets the example by lying, ignoring people that can't pay healthcare, can't pay for education, and basically shows it's all a fight about who gets to keep most money?

What example would you have citizens rather follow?

Also, if you think it coercive you are basically admitting your democracy isn't working. Otherwise it wouldn't be coercion but executing on the whishes of the people voting.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#129

Post by jayd16 »

tomohawk wrote: post #72

Cooperation used to be by free association through civic organizations. As the government has grown in scope, it has eclipsed these, and it really isn't surprising that civic society has declined as a result. When people freely participate in civic activities, they are being generous. There is no coercion. When government does the same thing, it is coercive. The activity does not occur unless taxes are collected. Cho…

>I've heard many people ask why they should volunteer or help out others, when they're already paying lots of money in taxes to "take care of those problems".

They'll say that no matter what the tax rate is.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#130

Post by smokeyj »

rmchugh wrote: post #124
tomohawk wrote: post #72

Cooperation used to be by free association through civic organizations. As the government has grown in scope, it has eclipsed these, and it really isn't surprising that civic society has declined as a result. When people freely participate in civic activities, they are being generous. There is no coercion. When government does the same thing, it is coercive. The activity does not occur unless taxes are collected. Cho…

So you are proposing that high cooperation is dependent on low government intervention. This seems incorrect. In Denmark for example there is a far more interventionist state than in the US, while membership of associations and clubs is also very high.

Part of it is game theory. If your community is your means of survival then being cooperative in your community increases the chance of reciprocation when needed. But I think the size of the community isn't something that can be institutionally grown to scale. A community without accountability devolves into anarchy very quickly. Instead of trying to get out what you put in, the game is to take as much and contribute as little as possible.
Post reply on HN