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Why PS4 downloads are so slow

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Re: Why PS4 downloads are so slow

#121

Post by AndrewGaspar »

tinus_hn wrote: post #63
zeta0134 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case the scheduler isn't as much of a problem as the interrupt service routine, which by its very nature interrupts the normal thread-level scheduler to do some work with the hardware. Both the Network Interface Card (or wireless chip) and the Audio hardware generate interrupts for a variety of reasons. Network cards generate interrupts when data is finished sending or receiving. Audio hardware generally gene…

On Windows, like other modern operating systems, a driver is supposed to do only the minimum amount of work possible in the interrupt handler, to avoid this problem. The real work is supposed to happen later when it can be scheduled.

While it's true that networking device drivers on Windows defer all meaningful work to post-ISR, it only moves the goal posts a little bit. On Windows, a lot of network traffic processing (e.g. tcp/ip acknowledgment, virtual switch packet forwarding) is performed in a DPC[1] queued in response to the device's interrupt. A DPC generally runs at dispatch level, which gives it more-or-less exclusive access to the CPU until completion. This preempts the thread scheduler and can result in user-visible stutters in audio and video when the network load outpaces the CPU's ability to quickly service the network traffic.

[1] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/ke...

Re: Why PS4 downloads are so slow

#122

Post by motoboi »

tenryuu wrote: post #95

I remember someone hacking at this issue a while ago. They blocked Sony Japan's server, of which the download was coming from. The Playstation the fetched the file from a more local server, of which the speed was considerable faster. Really strange

Closer server means lower rtt. All things equal, this translates to a faster transmission.

Re: Why PS4 downloads are so slow

#123

Post by khedoros1 »

whipoodle wrote: post #92
btschaegg wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There actually seem to be people whose default mode of operation seems to lie entirely in that zone though. I'm pretty sure everyone arrives at a similar conclusion if they realise that attempts to fix a certain person's code always end in a express trip to the 6th stage of debugging [1]... [1]: http://plasmasturm.org/log/6debug/

We do ourselves a kindness when we skip to step 4.

Except step 5 needs two variants, then: "Oh, I see why it happens" and "Oh, I see that it doesn't, so let's find a way to communicate better with the user".

Re: Why PS4 downloads are so slow

#124

Post by HumbleGamer »

govg wrote: post #120
theWatcher37 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have less free time than most here and somehow I find a way. "Maintaining" a PC is super easy...

Upgrading a PC is a one time thing you need to do once every few years. You'd be "upgrading" your console by putting it in the bin and buying a new one, so I'm not sure what the argument is against PC gaming here...

There is a convenience factor. You dont have to think if you will be able to play 'xxxx' game on your ps4, if its a ps4 game. That plays heavily in keeping me away from PC gaming. I just dont want to have to even consider can I play the game or not.

Re: Why PS4 downloads are so slow

#125

Post by Drdrdrq »

peterwwillis wrote: post #37
PaulHoule wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is astonishing how oblivious people who are "paid to spend time on the product" can be about the products they ship. Case in point, Microsoft shipped a EXPLORER.EXE with Windows 10 that is 20% whitespace because of an Adobe invented metadata format that I bet nobody involved with Windows ever thought about it. See http://ontology2.com/essays/LookingForMetadataInAllTheWrongP...

Wasting space is a byproduct of having too much space. Just because it's bloated does not mean they didn't know it was bloated. They probably didn't care. As time goes by, minimum hardware requirements for operating systems increase. This isn't because it is more difficult to write software, or the hardware stopped being capable of doing the same thing it used to do. It's because software design wastes more resources…

This is one of the reasons for Docker containers to be so popular. They are basically statically linked apps, carrying everything they need within themselves.

But - I like that. Not having to worry about some library version because I know the obe that is supplied is the same one the developer put there. Nice.

Re: Why PS4 downloads are so slow

#126

Post by ekianjo »

ripdog wrote: post #80
andrewstuart wrote: post #71

Its bizarre because I bought something from the PlayStation store on my PS4 and it took DAYS to download. The strange part of the story is that it took so long to download that the next day I went and bought the game (Battlefield 4) from the shop and brought it back home and installed it and started playing it, all whilst the original purchase from the PlayStation store was still downloading. I ask Sony if they would…

Because they are in a dominant market position. Honestly, it's your fault for buying a console - you knew you'd be at sony's mercy due to the monopolistic nature of consoles. The cost of switching to the one comparible console option is so great, most people will not bother unless sony's issues become too great - and network speed is presumably not a deal-breaker for enough people for sony to care. So you will contin…

> If my steam purchase downloaded super slow, I could simply get a refund on steam (an automated process) and purchase the same game on GOG, or on Humble Store

I'm with you in general (PC Gamer here) but your example does not really work well. There are many games only available on Steam and not GOG, and while you get most Steam games (but not all) on Humble Bundle, Humble Bundle only gives you a Steam key so you are back to Steam and its potential issues.

Unfortunately, because of Steam's predominance in PC Gaming, you are more of less stuck with the same problems as the PS4, as in "if it does not work, suck it up". There is no other store platform on PC that has the breadth of choice of Steam.

Re: Why PS4 downloads are so slow

#127

Post by ekianjo »

andrewstuart wrote: post #86
ripdog wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they are in a dominant market position. Honestly, it's your fault for buying a console - you knew you'd be at sony's mercy due to the monopolistic nature of consoles. The cost of switching to the one comparible console option is so great, most people will not bother unless sony's issues become too great - and network speed is presumably not a deal-breaker for enough people for sony to care. So you will contin…

I left PC gaming behind years ago. I like to sit on the couch and I want my gaming device to be a black box that does its job and is dedicated to couch based entertainment (I use it for TV too). PC gaming requires a...... PC... usually sitting at a desk, much more powerful than I need, lots of configuration etc etc to hard.... I'm a couch gamer in the evening after the programming is done. I don't care much about the…

> I just don't care about that stuff any more.. life's too short to worry about who our corporate overlords are.

Oh this state of things can change faster than the duration of your lifetime, so you should care.

Re: Why PS4 downloads are so slow

#128

Post by ekianjo »

MBCook wrote: post #104
jdormit wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a Steam Link, and I get all the benefits of PC gaming from my couch. It's a pretty seamless best-of-both-worlds situation.

You also get the downside of having to maintain/upgrade the PC, which is one of the things I was happy to leave behind when I became a console-only gamer.

> You also get the downside of having to maintain/upgrade the PC, which is one of the things I was happy to leave behind when I became a console-only gamer.

Oh, you mean the 15 mins swap of a graphics card every 3 years?

Re: Why PS4 downloads are so slow

#129

Post by Drdrdrq »

andrewstuart wrote: post #86
ripdog wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they are in a dominant market position. Honestly, it's your fault for buying a console - you knew you'd be at sony's mercy due to the monopolistic nature of consoles. The cost of switching to the one comparible console option is so great, most people will not bother unless sony's issues become too great - and network speed is presumably not a deal-breaker for enough people for sony to care. So you will contin…

I left PC gaming behind years ago. I like to sit on the couch and I want my gaming device to be a black box that does its job and is dedicated to couch based entertainment (I use it for TV too). PC gaming requires a...... PC... usually sitting at a desk, much more powerful than I need, lots of configuration etc etc to hard.... I'm a couch gamer in the evening after the programming is done. I don't care much about the…

> ...life's too short to worry about who our corporate overlords are

This is not what freedom of choice is about (to me). What I care about is the amount of power they yield over my experience. In Linux their power is low. Windows? Mac? Too high for my taste.

Re: Why PS4 downloads are so slow

#130

Post by richmarr »

jzwinck wrote: post #78
btschaegg wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There actually seem to be people whose default mode of operation seems to lie entirely in that zone though. I'm pretty sure everyone arrives at a similar conclusion if they realise that attempts to fix a certain person's code always end in a express trip to the 6th stage of debugging [1]... [1]: http://plasmasturm.org/log/6debug/

Definitely. And that "quick hack by default" person will often end up being the favorite of management because they get so many things "done." So it's important to figure out what kind of manager you have, and try not to be the slow guy on a team full of quick-hack people. You won't look good and nobody will be happy.

> So it's important to figure out what kind of manager you have, and try not to be the slow guy on a team full of quick-hack people. You won't look good and nobody will be happy.

I'd also add that it's important to understand the context in which your team is working.

If I were managing this hypothetical team in a pre-product-market-fit startup I could see the 'slow' person as a potentially greater risk than the others. Not because of speed per se, but because he may be investing too much time in directions that don't help the company learn about their market, and he may be building grand architectural visions that are hard to delete when we realise the product is going in a direction that person didn't anticipate.

On the other hand if I were managing the same hypothetical team in a highly defined context, for example a mature product or an open source library with a large userbase, the 'quick hack' people would need to change their ways.

Obviously this analysis is incredibly shallow and would need a ton of conversation and observation; I'm just making the point that different phases of product market fit require very different approaches & it's worth being aware.

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