How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
121–130 of 163 posts
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
Curious, why do you have to remember that 2 + 2 = 4 & 3 + 2 = 5? Once you know the values the symbols represent, at that point isn't it similar in simplicity to roman numerals? II + II = IIII 2 + 2 = 4 Don't see how the latter problem lends itself to any more memorization beyond symbols
Because if you don't memorize your 'primitive' algebraic rules you'll end up just doing a pullback with roman numerals in the middle. Integers don't have any values, they're mathematical objects with certain properties. Asking about 'the value of 5' doesn't make sense unless you're trying to convert to another, already known, number system. What is 2 + 5? Well 2 is II and 5 is V which is IIIII. So then we have IIIIII…
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am going to guess base 10 is prevalent because we have 10 fingers ? :) I speak a language (Mende) that has no formal mathematics but counting is done in base 10; there are 10 individual words for 1 to 10 , the word for one is "yaella", the word for 10 is "poo", the word (really expression) for 11 is "poo mahun yaella", which literally translates to 10 on top of 1 ie 10+1...I can only think they stopped at 10 words…
> I am going to guess base 10 is prevalent because we have 10 fingers ? :) Yeah, basically. There are other ways to count on your hands though. I seem to recall there are places that count on their hands using the 12 finger joints (or segments), and it works just as well. Edit: To clarify, they use their thumb to point to the joints or segments on each of their fingers, in turn.
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
For many cases one can ignore division, but yes, as the article said that generally required an abacus. Multiplication doesn't in general require an abacus if you're trained in roman numerals. Let's take your "more complicated numbers", 42 * 13. Expand XLII * XIII = X * XLII + XLII + XLII + XLII, the first requires you to know a times table to see that it's CDXX, the rest you'd add mentally, LLL - XXX = CXX, so it's…
I think we can all agree addition is fairly easy. Multiplication, since it can be explained in terms of addition, it also not really that hard. Subtraction and division are harder, as I originally noted, and by extension division, are harder, as there is not one simple rule for conversion before subtraction that won't require additional conversions unless you go to the simplest form, which is unwieldy (along string o…
Subtraction is as easy as addition (unless you go into negative numbers). The stategy is to walk the subtrahend left-to-right, eliminating from both as you go. If you run into a value that you don't have, then you expand the minuend from the right until you do.
For your "difficult" example of 42 - 13:
XXXXII - XIII
1 Eliminate an X from both.
Now you have XXXII - III.
2 Eliminate I from both
Now you have XXXI - II. Repeating (2) gives you XXX - I.
3 Since there is no I to eliminate, expand the minuend from the right to create one.
Now you have XXVV - I, repeat since you still don't have a I, repeat (3) which gives you XXVIIIII - I
Eliminate the from I both, giving the final result: XXVIIII.
Optional, you can "reduce" this to XXVIV, like you would if you had a fraction, like 3/9, but as stated in the article, this notation was not common place in ancient Rome.
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#125Okay so the article is wrong about some points. We have evidence for both IIII and IV notation in classic roman archeological finds. The obvious example is the entrance fee doors around the colliseum in Rome, they're are engraved with numbers, in both forms of notation. Seriously I figured they used abacus for everything they just figured out the notation to write it down in at the end some would convert to the if no…
Yes, this is exactly right, and should be at the top of this discussion thread. Romans (like the Greeks, the Babylonians, and others in the ancient world) did their calculations using a counting board. Roman numerals were only used for recording the final answers.
“When a Roman wished to settle accounts with someone, he would use the expression vocare aliquem ad calculos - ‘to call them to the pebbles.’” http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/57572.html
Our words calculate, calculus, calculator, etc. all come from the Latin word for the pebbles they used as counting-board tokens.
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#126I always thought that roman numerals would be a simpler way to do basic arithmetic and might lend itself more to simple commerce. For example: III represents 3 things, so III + II = IIIII For simple commerce application that is simpler, I just have to then remember that IIIII = V, and VV = X and XXXXX = L, LL = C. Armed with just those simple rules I could probably get by in the market place in Rome. With Arabic numb…
>1 is one thing, 2 represents 2 things, 3 represents 3 things and so on I follow you thus far. >Then I have to remember that 2 + 2 = 4, and 3 + 2 = 5 No you don't. You have to remember that 1 + 1 = 2; 2 + 1 = 3; ...; 9 + 1 = 10; and then the rules repeat themselves, respecting columns for addition. All mathematics between 1 and 10 like 4 + 5 are already known at this point. Roman numerals, on the other hand, give you…
If you spent several decades working with a counting board and had only occasionally seen Hindu–Arabic arithmetic, you would likely feel the opposite (as, indeed, people did for the first few centuries after written arithmetic was introduced to Europe – for example our word cipher, meaning secret code, comes from the word for the Arabic 0, reflecting people’s early confusion about pen and paper arithmetic).
The Romans (and others in the Roman empire) were the premier engineers, merchants, bureaucrats, astronomers, etc. of their era and region. They didn’t have any problem doing extremely complex computations.
As for your specific concerns: the easy pattern is that the letter for a group of five literally looks like half of the letter for a group of ten.
V = X/2, L = C/2, D = ↀ/2, ↁ = ↂ/2, etc.
So you need to remember the meanings and relations for the symbols for I, X, C, ↀ, ↂ and then just count them. The patterns that: IIIII = V; XXXXX = L; CCCCC = D, ↀↀↀↀↀ = ↁ are really not that hard to remember. The groups of five are mostly there as a shorthand, because writing nine of the same symbol in a row is harder to count and takes up more space.
These patterns are certainly no harder than remembering the English words ten, hundred, thousand (or Latin words unus, decem, centum, mille), which are also arbitrary symbols.
Since the numbers are always written in order, you can learn to separate them by digits. People would have “chunked” a long string of these symbols into the word for each each digit, and pronounced them using words pretty much like modern languages. Just like in our natural languages, the system is not strictly positional – you just skip writing/pronouncing any lines on the counting board with no pebbles.
So if you see DCCCXXXXVII you think of it / read it as “eight hundred forty seven”, first split into the groups DCCC XXXX VII, with the digit represented by the pattern and the order of magnitude represented by the symbols used. Or alternately, you would have seen them as the visual patterns “three pebbles on the hundred line and one in the space above; four pebbles on the tens line; two pebbles on the one line and one in the space above”.
When you’re thinking of the meaning of these symbols, you’re going to be fluently translating them in your head back and forth between three representations: verbal, counting board, and written. Once these have all been worked with extensively, there’s not much friction. It’s just like learning to read, or learning music notation. Someone experienced can read a musical phrase on a score and hear the sound of the whole expression in their head, rather than trying to count which line each note is on, count out the tempo, etc.
Objectively, the Roman system is easier to teach up to a basic level, especially to someone illiterate. Basic calculations on a counting board are straight forward and easy to explain and motivate. Multi-digit multiplication gets a bit annoying in both cases because it involves the summation of many partial partial products. Long division and square roots get nasty in both systems.
Where the Hindu–Arabic system really shines is when people need to frequently work with very large numbers, very precise numbers (though remember there were no decimal fractions per se in Europe until >1600), or numbers of different orders of magnitude, have access to cheap and abundant paper, and can spend years training to do basic arithmetic. The biggest advantages of pen and paper methods for basic arithmetic are that it’s easy to see the whole work process, and therefore more easily check for mistakes, and that writing the final answer doesn’t take as much space. It’s also much easier to write down and explain pen and paper arithmetic methods in a printed book. The counting board methods are often faster to perform.
But more importantly still, pen and paper arithmetic is easy to generalize to more sophisticated mathematical notation for fractions, algebraic equations, etc.
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#127I always thought that roman numerals would be a simpler way to do basic arithmetic and might lend itself more to simple commerce. For example: III represents 3 things, so III + II = IIIII For simple commerce application that is simpler, I just have to then remember that IIIII = V, and VV = X and XXXXX = L, LL = C. Armed with just those simple rules I could probably get by in the market place in Rome. With Arabic numb…
you skipped over III + I = IV, and VI+III = IX. Subtractive notation is confusing.
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've noticed that I understand what is going on much more when a function is written in code than in its mathematical form. A lot of that is familiarity but I don't think all of it is.
That's because code has documented and testable semantics whereas mathematical notation is more by convention than anything. It's in between natural language and code in terms of ambiguity, but is sufficiently flexible and clear to practitioners that it remains the best way to communicate to other practitioners.
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#129Perhaps this is why there were really no Roman mathematicians. For how much they admired and emulated the Greeks, they themselves were never really able to contribute to math and science in the same way. Practically everything we think about today in western civilization in terms of Law, Architecture, Engineering, and Urban Planning comes directly from the Romans. Yet they never produced an Archimedes or a Pythagoras…
The alternative later way the Greeks (e.g. Euclid, Archimedes) wrote numbers was using their alphabet for 1–9, using separate letters for 10–90 and 100–900, then writing 1000–9000 with a “thousand” symbol plus the letter for 1–9 on top. Overall also a big pain in the butt.
Re: How Did Anyone Do Math in Roman Numerals?
#130It's interesting how the notation used can encourage or retard progress. For example, Leibniz's calculus notation was vastly superior to Newton's, and calculus theory advanced much more quickly where Leibniz's notation was used. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz%27s_notation
An important facet to mathematics in general, that most are unaware of before studying it, is that the majority of proofs, especially those done in bachelor university courses, are purely notation. Other problems often become trivial to solve by using a different notation (e.g. polar form vs. points on the complex plane) as well.