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I'm not a Woman in Tech

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Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#121

Post by praneshp »

emsy wrote: post #58
aphextron wrote: post #2

>I want inclusivity, not exclusivity. Thank you. I find myself feeling the exact same way as a black man in this industry, and cringe at "minority only" events and clubs. We don't need token inclusion and separate praise for being "brave" and "fighting against the odds". We need a world where those things are irrelevant.

I recently watched an answer on this by Steven Pinker as to why this "re-segregation" is happening. He basically says that legitimate movements don't stop as soon as they've reached their goal and at that point, they start to become regressive. Interestingly he provides an example that hasn't to do with any ism: child protection. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFnP5UUXuTk

Thanks for this link. I have (independently) been thinking the same thing, that movements become regressive after a huge goal is achieved. Steven puts the point across well.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#122

Post by coldpie »

dcow wrote: post #93
coldpie wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a company should be focused on acquiring the best developers they can, not finding ones of a specific gender I respectfully disagree. This position doesn't take into account how existing gender biases affect those who are choosing which field to enter. If a field is primarily composed of men, then young women may not feel welcome in the field and may go elsewhere, meaning there are fewer good developers in the pool…

Are you suggesting that "half the population" is not as capable? That's the only way they would be excluded according to the parent post.

I don't follow. I was explaining why the "hiring only the best" strategy perpetuates a gender imbalance. If there is an 80:20 gender ratio in the industry, and assuming an equal skill distribution, then there will be about 4 times as many men as women in the "hiring only the best" work force. It's not hard to imagine that this could dissuade some young women from choosing this industry, regardless of their aptitude for it. As a result, we have fewer high quality candidates in the industry as a whole.

One way to change this is to correct the imbalance in industry, giving young women a more welcoming environment, role models, etc. However, this actively requires a different hiring strategy than "only the best." As I said, this gets into a "tragedy of the commons" situation, which can only be resolved through collective action, whether voluntarily within the industry like hiring quotas and outreach to women or enforced by the government through affirmative action-style laws.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#123

Post by losteverything »

I hate to break this to ya, but we all have labels; most are not self defined. Most have more than one.

Lose your hearing when addressed by a label. Get tough if you have to.

I remember when we openly said "it's a woman doctor," or "a woman chef"

So its not desired to be addressed by "woman in tech" but it will happen. Just like the "divorced" group or the "wealthy" or the "rehab" or the DINKs or whatever.

It is the personal responsibility of the sayer to avoid labels out loud.

Your post helps those that might slip know it is not desirable

We all have such great contributions we can make because we are individuals: not because we have a label. But don't think they don't exist.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#124

Post by BadassFractal »

Many will disagree with the post's take, because it doesn't comfortably fit the narrative of women being a special class of people that need to be protected and shielded from the evils of the tech world.

In reality this is the only answer, you don't make something stronger by coddling it, you make it stronger by exposing it to adversity. Beware of the soft bigotry of lowered expectations. Old school feminism would approve of your take, but the new generation of identitarian radicals will just tell you that while you OP are a woman, you're still white and not sufficiently intersectionally opressed to have an opinion in the matter. They would claim you should probably shut up and listen to those higher than you on the victimhood totem.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#125

Post by mercurysmessage »

adventured wrote: post #120
mercurysmessage wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you are approaching this right. You are painting an entire group of people under the same brush... Also, feminism is promoting equality.

I disagree that feminism is promoting equality. I think I'm approaching it exactly right. Your response is conceptually exactly why I no longer post opinions as myself on social media now. If this were a personal discussion on Facebook or Twitter, the left's censorship/control attack wave would be rolling in right now, calling me countless labels (instead, here you'll just get downvotes, your life won't be ruined and…

Because you don't want to hear others opinions.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#126

Post by pryphet »

Thanks for sharing. I've started to avoid these sorts of events/initiatives myself because they are a huge time sink. If I'm already disadvantaged, why am I expected to take on extra volunteer commitments? Especially when my peers don't face the same pressure to participate in these distractions?

IMO, I think companies should focus on fixing their broken interviewing process and becoming more transparent about hiring and compensation.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#127

Post by projectramo »

aquadrop wrote: post #65
projectramo wrote: post #16

Okay, so here is the thing: nobody wants to make the labels explicit, or to think about the minority or female labels. The reason that has come into style is because people have implicit associations and biases. And the theory is the best way to deal with them is to explicitly think about it. Example. You're hiring for a position. It is very technical. You see a bunch of candidates and then you just think some would…

Just a thought. What would happen if some big company implemented this practice and it led to number of hired women to be even less? Will they be praised because they did it, or attacked because they now have even less women? It's not a sarcasm/anything, just interested in your opinion.

I don't know what others would do.

I think it would be interesting to know what the reason was for the change. Is it because they present the resume differently?

There have been several studies where placing an identical resume with a male or female name will give you different calls for an interview.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#128

Post by dkersten »

aphextron wrote: post #2

>I want inclusivity, not exclusivity. Thank you. I find myself feeling the exact same way as a black man in this industry, and cringe at "minority only" events and clubs. We don't need token inclusion and separate praise for being "brave" and "fighting against the odds". We need a world where those things are irrelevant.

> cringe at "minority only" events and clubs

My observation on this is that some people in these demographics don't feel comfortable when they are vastly outnumbered at events and that "minority only" events and clubs exist to provide them with the opportunities provided by such events, but without the dangers or discomforts that may be perceived or existing at more inclusive events. I can certainly respect that viewpoint, but I, too, hope for a time when this is unnecessary and that all events are inclusive and all people treated equal.

(I am a white male)

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#129

Post by johnpython »

The mentality espoused in this blog post is way off the mark and similar to how Uncle Tom's deal with racism. If you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore the problems with diversity that is your prerogative, but demanding other women and people of color to do the same is extremely gross and unsettling.

Re: I'm not a Woman in Tech

#130

Post by praneshp »

femwarrior wrote: post #117
johnpython wrote: post #102

SV tech companies are infested with young white brogrammers who only want to work with people who look like them and share their hobbies/interests. They call it "cultural fit" Edit: missed important adjective "white"

Citation?

I vouched this so I could get to know 'johnpython's views.
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