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I'm a creep. I'm sorry

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Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#121

Post by ceejayoz »

dbg31415 wrote: post #96
ceejayoz wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of the issue isn't just "meeting through work", but the power imbalance. Of your examples, only Gates includes this imbalance. I don't know the specifics of their situation, but I'd hope that he recused himself from being directly involved in her performance reviews etc., whereas McClure was explicitly tying his attraction to the hiring decision - "I was getting confused figuring out whether to hire you or hit o…

I'd be more worried about the guy who she says no to who keeps coming. Poor judgement... maybe, but who knows what signals he was reading into the situation at the time. He just sounds like a guy who doesn't have a lot of experience with women, and he tried to make a joke and it didn't go well. Now he's gotta read about his failed flirtation attempts in the NYT. That's gotta be rough. If he was overt, or repetitive,…

> If he was overt, or repetitive, or really sleazy... yeah sure, I'm not on his side.

The apology explicitly states "I made advances towards multiple women in work-related situations, where it was clearly inappropriate."

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#122

Post by stevebmark »

Refreshing to see an actual apology instead of a digging in of heels common to tech industry shittiness (see: Notch). The apology may(?) be cathartic for the people he's harassed but the damage is done. He's only apologizing as a forced response from the major public backlash. The only silver lining I see is others will be (and are) scared about this kind of behavior which used to go unchecked.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#123

Post by pjzedalis »

He completely misses the forests from the trees.

Had the woman been hired she would have been denied by him the satisfaction of knowing she earned the position through her hard work, intelligence, and capabilities.

He also does not seem to recognize why he is a creep. Ultimately we find people creepy when they portray themselves and their motives one way and yet secretly or covertly act another.

I recommend therapy so that he can identify his true desires and motivations and then realign his life to optimize for them.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#125

Post by noahth »

taurath wrote: post #113
caseysoftware wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are dozens, hundreds of events ranging from meetups to conference parties to pitch events to just about everything else that often involve drinks or going out for drinks immediately before/after with other participants. Whether that's "social" or a "professional" setting is hotly debated but regardless, it's the norm. Throw in social media and it is very easy (still not appropriate) to blur lines.

If you have a job where you are working 12 hour days and weekends, your job is your life. I am actually curious when would an actual appropriate time to ask someone on a date might be - clearly the second someone brings up professional stuff, it should be out the door, but the veil of that can be breached with a simple "what have you been working on lately"

If you're working 12 hour days and having trouble with your social life, the problem is _not_ that it's not OK to hit on women in a professional setting. The problem is that you're working too much.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#126

Post by protomyth »

CurtMonash wrote: post #85
protomyth wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not commenting on this case, but Billy Graham, after seeing what happened to other well know preachers, was never alone with any woman except his wife Ruth. It is a pretty good strategy. Today, a powerful person could probably enhance his/her personal security by having an assistant with an always on camera like some police forces use.

VPOTUS Mike Pence takes the same approach. This makes it tough for him to give important jobs to women, at least ones who would have to work closely with him. That is not a good thing.

I would need actual proof that it makes it tough. Having a trusted assistant in the room, always, is not exactly a logistical problem. I'm trying to think of a work situation where it is imperative for two people and only two people to be alone. Seems like a bad thing even for M-M.

I agree its not a good thing, but its the way of a world where accusation is treated as fact and put on the front page and the retraction is somewhere inside the paper in small type.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#127

Post by Aron »

FT_intern wrote: post #79

I'm not sure if creep is the best word to use here. Creep is a gendered term like slut or bitch.

So it would be weird if he called himself a bitch maybe, but he is a male calling himself creep, so I'm confused.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#128

Post by tormeh »

mc32 wrote: post #112
grecy wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It was over drinks and I thought it was social" It is horrifying that world leaders and public figures use this kind of excuse, which is supposed to somehow give a pass, and then we see it trickle down to the man on the street. Really, the public figures should be prosecuted and made an example of, so that is the example for the average man. Anything less is unacceptable.

I think his use of "I fucked up" while on the one hand it makes it seem like he's acknowledging the seriousness of the incidents, on the other hand it signals that he still has an issue with social convention and knowing what is appropriate and not. One does not go up to someone you owe deference and include the word "fuck" specially given the kinds of allegations and confirmation, in your apology. Understand social…

I looked him up on YouTube. This is simply how he communicates. I guess he started out thinking it would make him sound decisive and effective and now it's internalized. The reason he does it is that he's insecure, like a man speaking with a lower tone than is really his own.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#129

Post by dbg31415 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #121
dbg31415 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be more worried about the guy who she says no to who keeps coming. Poor judgement... maybe, but who knows what signals he was reading into the situation at the time. He just sounds like a guy who doesn't have a lot of experience with women, and he tried to make a joke and it didn't go well. Now he's gotta read about his failed flirtation attempts in the NYT. That's gotta be rough. If he was overt, or repetitive,…

> If he was overt, or repetitive, or really sleazy... yeah sure, I'm not on his side. The apology explicitly states "I made advances towards multiple women in work-related situations, where it was clearly inappropriate."

I'd be more worried if he made multiple advances to the same woman after being shot down multiple times by that woman. That's harassment.

He's just... well... he seems like a really lonely guy.

Re: I'm a creep. I'm sorry

#130

Post by throwaway055 »

liquidise wrote: post #92
chasing wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fun fact: You don't have the right to be creepy or predatory towards women just because alcohol is involved. Women have the right to go out for drinks with coworkers without being sexually harassed.

Honest question, maybe one best asked to my female friends: at what point does propositioning someone transition from simply not mutual attraction to sexual harassment? The definition is broad and says making "unwanted sexual advances or obscene remarks". Is there a line drawn between romantic and sexual propositioning? I'm not looking to be intentionally obtuse here, i'm more trying to make sense of the legal nature…

The word "unwanted" is troubling, because it means the alleged victim gets to personally decide whether the act was illegal/punishable or not, based entirely on their own subjective feelings.

So I guess, if you're good looking, it's legal, and maybe you end up marrying and having children (as people often do in these situations). If you're not good looking, it's a violation and you should be fired/prosecuted.

This definitely isn't a clean or fair way to write or enforce laws or standards for conduct and punishment in the workplace. It might still be necessary and it might be the best we can do, but it's definitely all a big gray area, not just in its interpretation, but in its literal definition ("unwanted").

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