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Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

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Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#121

Post by crdoconnor »

AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #112
3pt14159 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Only if you're very inexperienced will this be tricky, once you're senior nobody bats an eye when I ask for things to be changed in the contract. A contract is part of communicating how we will work together. Demonstrate that you're competent by clearly communicating the changes you want and why you want them and if they react back poorly then you dodged a major bullet, since they'll also communicate poorly in…

I've been working in software for a long time, and have been asked to sign non-competes over a dozen times by now. I'm a contractor, which makes it much easier to turn down (how the hell could I possibly keep working with a non-compete?), but the OP is correct in that almost everything is a PDF nowadays. You have to bitch and scream to get a contract changed. Most naive workers won't understand that there's a negotia…

>You have to bitch and scream to get a contract changed.

I've never had to bitch or scream. Just say "Oh and by the way, I have a couple of changes I need made to the contract".

Nobody's ever made me feel unreasonable for asking that, not even when I was fresh out of college.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#122

Post by etjossem »

3pt14159 wrote: post #116
AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been working in software for a long time, and have been asked to sign non-competes over a dozen times by now. I'm a contractor, which makes it much easier to turn down (how the hell could I possibly keep working with a non-compete?), but the OP is correct in that almost everything is a PDF nowadays. You have to bitch and scream to get a contract changed. Most naive workers won't understand that there's a negotia…

I've never had to send more than an email. > Hey Frank, just read through the non-compete and I have a few small changes. 1. Since we're only working on a proto-type for a classifier for sorting documents can we amend the non-compete to specifically mention that domain? I don't want to limit my options unnecessarily but I appreciate you wanting to stop me from turning around and selling this stuff to Microsoft once y…

Restricting the noncompete to cover only a very narrow domain can work too. Depending on how specialized you are, that might not be enough, which is why I recommend conceding only term-of-employment.

Your example sounds perfectly fine! But if you've spent decades building "3D animation engines for games" at various companies that do so - and that's basically your career now - you won't be helped much by being specific about what type of work is considered competition. YMMV, so concede only in ways that leave your options open.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#123

Post by mikeash »

lotharbot wrote: post #57
mikeash wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been presented with one (and hope I never will) so this is hypothetical, but I have a hard time imagining even doing that. A company is paying me to work for them, they're not paying to own me. When I'm off the clock, my time is my own, up to and including doing paid work for anyone else I want. I'd make an exception if they increased my pay accordingly. But considering that they're asking for 4.2x more of…

> "When I'm off the clock, my time is my own, up to and including doing paid work for anyone else I want." At least one of the reasons for a non-compete clause is to make sure you're not doing stuff on the clock for your employer, and then getting double-paid by a competitor for essentially the same end result but without the competitor having to pay for the whole process of getting that result. Like, if they're payi…

If I'm implementing literally the same stuff at the same time then I bet that's a massive copyright violation.

You have to take pains to avoid contamination when reverse engineering a product, for example, and that doesn't even involve the original staff.

Seems that your argument could also be used to justify lifetime noncompetes. If I work for a company, gain experience, then go work for another company, they're getting the benefit of all of that experience without having to pay for the years it took to obtain it.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#124

Post by hkmurakami »

ScottBurson wrote: post #94
mikeash wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been presented with one (and hope I never will) so this is hypothetical, but I have a hard time imagining even doing that. A company is paying me to work for them, they're not paying to own me. When I'm off the clock, my time is my own, up to and including doing paid work for anyone else I want. I'd make an exception if they increased my pay accordingly. But considering that they're asking for 4.2x more of…

> First, it's likely they'll use the phrase "standard contract" and say that it just can't be changed. I wonder what would happen if you said "Ah, so you're stipulating that it's a contract of adhesion. I'd like that in writing, please." Contracts of adhesion can be harder to enforce [0]. (IANAL, and I'm not necessarily recommending doing this, but I am curious what kind of response one would be likely to get.) [0] h…

I think the response is rescinded offer. The reasons will likely be along the lines of litigation risk, flight risk, culture fit, etc.

Not joking btw. It's rather amazing that employers who expect rational, logical decision making on the job want applicants to suspend their reasoning and good judgment when it comes to negotiating compensation and employment terms.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#125

Post by crdoconnor »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #90
etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

Just be ready for the company to pull the offer. Lots of times it's not even on the principle (we don't actually agree to the changes) but ego ... as in "who does this guy think he is pushing back on this contract that 100s of our employees have signed" If you're not ready for the company to walk away, be careful with this approach.

If it's an unreasonable contract and they refuse to make the contract reasonable upon request then having the company walk away probably means you dodged a bullet.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#126

Post by etjossem »

crdoconnor wrote: post #121
AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been working in software for a long time, and have been asked to sign non-competes over a dozen times by now. I'm a contractor, which makes it much easier to turn down (how the hell could I possibly keep working with a non-compete?), but the OP is correct in that almost everything is a PDF nowadays. You have to bitch and scream to get a contract changed. Most naive workers won't understand that there's a negotia…

>You have to bitch and scream to get a contract changed. I've never had to bitch or scream. Just say "Oh and by the way, I have a couple of changes I need made to the contract". Nobody's ever made me feel unreasonable for asking that, not even when I was fresh out of college.

Exactly. It feels even easier and more reasonable if you do the work for them; copy the document, make the changes, export as PDF and send it back. Everyone worth their salt understands employment agreements to be negotiable.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#127

Post by arcanus »

ScottBurson wrote: post #94
mikeash wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never been presented with one (and hope I never will) so this is hypothetical, but I have a hard time imagining even doing that. A company is paying me to work for them, they're not paying to own me. When I'm off the clock, my time is my own, up to and including doing paid work for anyone else I want. I'd make an exception if they increased my pay accordingly. But considering that they're asking for 4.2x more of…

> First, it's likely they'll use the phrase "standard contract" and say that it just can't be changed. I wonder what would happen if you said "Ah, so you're stipulating that it's a contract of adhesion. I'd like that in writing, please." Contracts of adhesion can be harder to enforce [0]. (IANAL, and I'm not necessarily recommending doing this, but I am curious what kind of response one would be likely to get.) [0] h…

Not a lawyer, and the Wikipedia was hard to follow. What do you think the implications of this in writing would be?

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#128

Post by random_comment »

linkregister wrote: post #84
etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

I hear this advice about contracts of adhesion all the time, "just red line out the parts you don't like, just like in that scene in 50 Shades of Gray." Who in the software industry still gets offers like that? Everyone I know gets a DocuSign PDF they sign digitally. There's no opportunity to alter the document. There is basically no non-confrontational way to do this. If a software developer has a competing offer, s…

If the other side sees ordinary negotiation as 'confrontation', walk away.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#129

Post by AnkhMorporkian »

3pt14159 wrote: post #116
AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been working in software for a long time, and have been asked to sign non-competes over a dozen times by now. I'm a contractor, which makes it much easier to turn down (how the hell could I possibly keep working with a non-compete?), but the OP is correct in that almost everything is a PDF nowadays. You have to bitch and scream to get a contract changed. Most naive workers won't understand that there's a negotia…

I've never had to send more than an email. > Hey Frank, just read through the non-compete and I have a few small changes. 1. Since we're only working on a proto-type for a classifier for sorting documents can we amend the non-compete to specifically mention that domain? I don't want to limit my options unnecessarily but I appreciate you wanting to stop me from turning around and selling this stuff to Microsoft once y…

I'm 100% with you, an email is all it usually takes, but most people don't realize that. When your life and blood depends on competing with the people you work with, it's very simple to say "no."

But when you're just getting a start and think that "this contract is life or death"? It's a non-starter, you would never think of negotiating it.

It makes more sense for them to simply be illegal than negotiable for that very reason.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#130

Post by AnkhMorporkian »

crdoconnor wrote: post #121
AnkhMorporkian wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been working in software for a long time, and have been asked to sign non-competes over a dozen times by now. I'm a contractor, which makes it much easier to turn down (how the hell could I possibly keep working with a non-compete?), but the OP is correct in that almost everything is a PDF nowadays. You have to bitch and scream to get a contract changed. Most naive workers won't understand that there's a negotia…

>You have to bitch and scream to get a contract changed. I've never had to bitch or scream. Just say "Oh and by the way, I have a couple of changes I need made to the contract". Nobody's ever made me feel unreasonable for asking that, not even when I was fresh out of college.

I was definitely exaggerating, and I'm sorry for that. That being said, it should be illegal simply to avoid the conflict that exists.
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