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China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

nytimes.com

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Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#121

Post by johansch »

marcell wrote: post #77

I'm struck by China's ability to attempt large, ambitious projects like this, compared to America's inability to do, well, anything really. The largest infrastructure project I'm aware of in the USA is California's High Speed Rail (~$60B+), was approved a decade ago and is barely making any progress. The federal government is in complete gridlock. The most ambitious legislation passed in the last decade, the ACA, cau…

Dictatorship does make it easier to get things done. It seems like you americans are getting there, though.

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#122

Post by jon_richards »

cylinder wrote: post #71
stupidhn wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They purchase our movie studios and then force on them Chinese propaganda and nothing negative on China ever. They are free to do what they want with what they have bought and paid for. > if not the least Lol is right.

Don't you know, Hollywood has never pushed American propaganda before...

Fun fact I learned recently: the US army provides a ton of props and consulting for free if they approve of the way a movie will portray them.

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#123

Post by spynxic »

propman wrote: post #100
thablackbull wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're witnessing is manufactured consent[1]. There is no need for the crude methods of propaganda here because it's not even necessary. Compare that with China; people there are fully conscious of government propaganda. From the SMH article, they expected the west to be a land of freedom and democratization of ideas, but what they end up finding is that it more or less is the same thing. > [2] "A lot of them ar…

But in the West the media is not state run. The Chinese government decides what to run and clearly that is propaganda. In America the media is controlled by 2 political parties and they are either pro or anti government. The media in the West can run any content they wish and it is up to the free market to determine if they can survive. You can listen to whatever viewpoint or angle. CNN, Fox, Huffpo, Brietbart everyo…

> "The Chinese government decides what to run and clearly that is propaganda. In America the media is controlled by 2 political parties.."

Is this thread attempting to argue that either means of propagating propaganda is more beneficial than the other for a people?

> "..CNN, Fox, Huffpo, Brietbart everyone is telling you different angles it is up to you to decide."

2 parties OR state-ran -- and no other option for news consumption. Modern media, eh?

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#124

Post by petra »

losteric wrote: post #106
petra wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With that timetable,compared to sea shipping we're talking about 3-5x faster time, but the cost will be about double - $8K-10K/container. But of course that saves money in warehousing and financing. So financially, today it makes sense for the more expensive goods, at $1.5M per container. And it's best because there's not a lot of capacity vs sea routes. But i wonder: could those prices, with more/better trains etc,…

> But i wonder: could those prices, with more/better trains etc, become close to sea shipping, such that aliexpress, which is extremely cheap but uses very slow sea shipping, start using rail ? Absolutely! China's labor costs are not the cheapest anymore, but their tight infrastructure saves more than enough money to keep over-all production costs extremely competitive. This is simply a continuation of their economic…

Even if this only makes the e-commerce battle balanced, that's a big win for Aliexpress, after all the Amazon investment.

But I suspect China will find a way.Maybe it would just be as simple as cheaper costs in the Asian part. Maybe it will be nudging Chinese companies to be "patriotic" now that it doesn't cost them more. If there's a will, there's a way.

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#125

Post by jon_richards »

taway_1212 wrote: post #108
marcell wrote: post #77

I'm struck by China's ability to attempt large, ambitious projects like this, compared to America's inability to do, well, anything really. The largest infrastructure project I'm aware of in the USA is California's High Speed Rail (~$60B+), was approved a decade ago and is barely making any progress. The federal government is in complete gridlock. The most ambitious legislation passed in the last decade, the ACA, cau…

Aren't the projects in China executed at complete disregard to the rights of individual citizens? I.e. if your house is in the way, sorry, we'll give you some laughable amount of money and send police over to brutalize you until you leave. Under such conditions, it's easy to make lots of change quickly (in such spirit, Stalin was even more efficient - he essentially enslaved a part of his nation via Gulags and used t…

I haven't looked it up, but I've heard from a local that if you are displaced by a government project you will "be rich". In his eyes it was similar to winning the lottery, if less extreme.

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#126

Post by podviaznikov »

xfs wrote: post #118
propman wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in the West the media is not state run. The Chinese government decides what to run and clearly that is propaganda. In America the media is controlled by 2 political parties and they are either pro or anti government. The media in the West can run any content they wish and it is up to the free market to determine if they can survive. You can listen to whatever viewpoint or angle. CNN, Fox, Huffpo, Brietbart everyo…

Far superior to state run propaganda as to what? Far superior for manufacturing consent? Sure. The western system of propaganda is far more competitive, innovative, or you can call it distributed in the way it hides its agenda in a network of proxies of capital instruments, which is exactly what it would evolve into with the free market. But what is dangerous about it is that this mode of propaganda is smarter than t…

This is a well put thought: > But what is dangerous about it is that this mode of propaganda is smarter than the people. In states with state-run propaganda, the people are smarter than the propaganda.

Your own or inspired by some book ?

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#127

Post by sceew »

thablackbull wrote: post #34
njarboe wrote: post #27

“Pursuing protectionism is just like locking oneself in a dark room,” Mr. Xi told business leaders at the World Economic Forum in January. I might agree with Mr. Xi, but the Great Firewall of China is a higher wall of protectionism than anything the West has against the Chinese. Forcing foreign companies to partner with Chinese companies and then transfer all of their closely held technologies and industrial processe…

Those two aren't mutually exclusive. America is an incredibly protectionist country as well if you aren't aware. http://www.eulerhermes.com/economic-research/publications/Pa... In the past 3 years, America has introduced far more protectionist measures than other countries.

Volume DNE extent.

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#128

Post by propman »

xfs wrote: post #118
propman wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in the West the media is not state run. The Chinese government decides what to run and clearly that is propaganda. In America the media is controlled by 2 political parties and they are either pro or anti government. The media in the West can run any content they wish and it is up to the free market to determine if they can survive. You can listen to whatever viewpoint or angle. CNN, Fox, Huffpo, Brietbart everyo…

Far superior to state run propaganda as to what? Far superior for manufacturing consent? Sure. The western system of propaganda is far more competitive, innovative, or you can call it distributed in the way it hides its agenda in a network of proxies of capital instruments, which is exactly what it would evolve into with the free market. But what is dangerous about it is that this mode of propaganda is smarter than t…

For State run propaganda, there is never any alternative. In the West system I can start my own news org and run it. Huffpo and Brietbart were started in response to the monopolies of the 2 parties and were started with very little in capital and are the top 50 most visited sites in the world top 5 news sites.

Self determinism and free choice thwart state run propaganda. Manufactured consent is not controlled by the government but by a whole bunch of competing sources that can be defeated. I can think of no more effective system aside from ours in which all the knowledge is free and accessible. Aside from new technology that lessons the effects, increase of critical thinking and knowledge are the only solutions. In this country anyone is free to provide this through news, education or whatever other medium they devise.

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#129

Post by jon_richards »

petra wrote: post #60
Animats wrote: post #21

The "Belt and Road" scheme is well known. The first container freight train from Yiwu, China to Barking, England, arrived January 15, 2017. Coast to coast travel time: two weeks.[1] Conveniently, China uses a 4' 8.5" track gauge, unlike Russian metric gauge, so they can move freight cars all the way without a gauge change. Soon, of course, heavier rails, longer trains, faster trains, more trains, better gradients, mo…

With that timetable,compared to sea shipping we're talking about 3-5x faster time, but the cost will be about double - $8K-10K/container. But of course that saves money in warehousing and financing. So financially, today it makes sense for the more expensive goods, at $1.5M per container. And it's best because there's not a lot of capacity vs sea routes. But i wonder: could those prices, with more/better trains etc,…

Container ships are about 2.5 times as fuel efficient as trains. I'm not sure what percentage of total cost that is, but I imagine it is significant.

Re: China's $1T Plan to Shake Up the Economic Order

#130

Post by crdoconnor »

BurningFrog wrote: post #67
holydude wrote: post #31

The scary part is china's protectionism. Small nations and businesses have so little possibilities to operate in china without getting robbed of IP or being outcompeted by state supported domestic ventures. I fear the future of China being stronger superpower than the USA.

Protectionism has never made a country strong.

There aren't any countries which haven't done it in one way or another - from Singapore and Hong Kong loading up on US treasuries, to Japan's eye wateringly high car subsidies in the 50s to America (from 1800s-1945).

"Free trade" is simply the philosophy of pulling up the development ladder after your country has already ascended and "the theory of comparative advantage" is the dogma that presumes that comparative advantage is both immutable and static.

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