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MBAs as CEOs

mintzberg.org

121–130 of 167 posts

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hate on Peter Thiel all the time, but he's absolutely right here. MBA schools teach a form of strategic analysis that is almost purely driven by fatally flawed ex post facto reasoning. Hell, the case study model pioneered at Harvard is a case study in ex post facto reasoning. Just read their most popular business books...always looking to the past and trying to find mystical reasons why one company did well and ano…

hate the artist, not the art. You don't have to like Thiel's political beliefs to admit he's smart as hell.

[deleted]

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#122
post #53

I know its popular to hate on Peter Thiel here but I think he's been right about this cohort for a long time, and that its not really surprising. Emphasis mine: > I think one challenge a lot of the business schools have is they end up attracting students who are very extroverted and have very low conviction, and they put them in this hot house environment for a few years — at the end of which, a large number of peopl…

I have an MBA from one of the top 3 programs, and I see a lot of evidence to support this, but I disagree that it's a lack of conviction. I came from a diff't background than most of my classmates, but the sense I got was that, for a lot of them, life was a series of clearly defined competitions & steps. I took to calling it the Gilded Pipeline, but in general, it was ivy undergrad -> banking/consulting -> private eq…

diff't ??

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#123
post #115
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about them, but since they rose up in the companies you usually get an MBA from that company. So the cause/effect relationship is off. I assume they were proper managers (like actual management, not shitty middle management) before getting the MBA. This is what usually happens to some of the engineering guys I went to university with who stay at companies and do not specialize in anything engineering but…

Everytime we do this on HN, the same argument shows up -- "MBAs are the worst." "Well what about these popular CEOs?" "Well they're not really MBAs, c'mon." Sundar Pichai went to Wharton for his MBA before joining Google. He is also ex-McKinsey. So, by HN standards, he's the absolute worst, right? Google's leadership ranks are filled with MBAs, including tons of VPs that aren't household names but are nonetheless ver…

I find it odd how MBA's are painted with such a broad brush here. It's literally just a degree.

IMO, anyone who hires purely based on a degree - whether it be a PhD, MBA, CS or whatever, is probably lazy and bad at hiring. If MBAs ruined a company, the people to blame should be the people who hired those individuals who happened to have MBAs and allowed them to ruin the company.

Granted, MBA programs do attract certain types of personalities - there were plenty of jerks when I started my MBA almost a quarter of a century ago (wow, i'm getting old), but there are also plenty of people with MBAs who aren't stereotypical money-grubbing, buzzword-spewing drones either.

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#124

I know its popular to hate on Peter Thiel here but I think he's been right about this cohort for a long time, and that its not really surprising. Emphasis mine: > I think one challenge a lot of the business schools have is they end up attracting students who are very extroverted and have very low conviction, and they put them in this hot house environment for a few years — at the end of which, a large number of peopl…

This is the video you're talking about, probably.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Fx5Q8xGU8k

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#125

I think it's more useful to think of MBAs as ordination into something like the Jesuits of American Corporatism. Late Capitalism in the US has evolved in such an obviously unequal and environmentally dangerous way that the only recourse we have is to a kind of "mystical" rhetoric. In this kind of system, being some kind of guru is just as important, if not more, than one's actual business acumen. Hence all the TED ta…

It is absolutely fascinating to look at the explosion of books, both self-help and entrepreneurial, that started in the 1980s and continues to this day. Some of those books are very good, and worth reading (my favorite, is Drucker's 1985 book "Innovation and Entrepreneurship"). Some of the self-help books are useful to salespeople (a good interview technique, when hiring salespeople, is to ask them the last 3 self-help books they've read. If they haven't read any, then they are not serious about sales).

Many of these books are complete garbage. But there are a lot of them.

The fascinating thing is how much this explosion of exciting rhetoric coincides with a sad and darkening reality, as described in sources such as these:

"The Surprising Slowdown in Startups"

http://fortune.com/2016/03/18/startup-growth-stagnation/

What if the conventional view of startups and entrepreneurship in the U.S. turns out, like so many conventional views, to be wrong? Substantial recent research suggests that it is. So brace yourself for decidedly counterintuitive findings that may help explain some of our era’s economic puzzles. First surprise: Startups aren’t increasing in the U.S. On the contrary, entrepreneurship has been declining for decades. The startup rate has fallen sharply over the past 30 or so years, from 14% of total companies in a given year to about 8%, say multiple papers by researchers Ryan Decker of the Federal Reserve Board, John Haltiwanger of the University of Maryland, and Ron S. Jarmin and Javier Miranda of the U.S. Census Bureau. That’s bad news because the rise of new companies is an important way in which capital and labor get reallocated from low-productivity uses to high-productivity uses. But this bad news gets worse.

And also:

http://www.governing.com/topics/mgmt/gov-businesses-economic...

Startup rates, or the share of all companies formed within the past year, had exceeded closure rates every year since at least the 1970s — even during recessions. That all came to a halt in 2008 with the economic downturn. While it’s normal for growth to diminish somewhat during economic recoveries, it has been slower than usual: There were still 182,000 fewer businesses in 2014 than in 2007, according to the report.

Falling startup rates aren’t just confined to a few industries. All major sectors of the economy experienced gradual declines.

The slowdown in the formation of new businesses has led to what the report calls a “golden age of incumbency,” with a larger share of Americans working for well-established companies than ever before.

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might want to re-explore your opportunity cost. At any top educational program, you'll get better competition and coaching from professors, peers, and alumni access than self-teaching. At most MBA programs, you can take accelerated courses or skip re-learning skills.

Better with respect to what? I'm referring specifically to the classes and associated academic knowledge, not to other aspects of the program.

I'm not referring to other aspects of the program, either.

> "you'll get better ... coaching from professors, peers, and alumni access than self-teaching."

Not all of the academic knowledge is in the textbook.

If I want to learn anything, I know the best way to learn is to get great coaching and a great curriculum. The unbundled (self-teaching) route is harder to navigate successfully, though, everyone thinks they're the exception!

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#127
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an MBA & startup founder, and I don't think it's fair to suggest this is an MBA-only thing. Talk to any startup co-founder or early-stage employee, and tell him/her that Lean Startup principles are wrong, or that VC $ is never worth it, or that Tim Ferriss (PBUH) should work longer hours--I'm certain they'd get just as dogmatic as you suggest MBAs are about capitalism. MBA teachings are useful in the same way tha…

Do you mind if i ask why you used the "(PBUH)"? Was it sarcasm? (I know what it stands for, but im confused about the usage)

Its a joke about how Tim Ferris followers can be very protective and dogmatic about his teachings, which parallel the way followers react to a certain prophet of a certain religion we all know.

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#128

I'm aware that HN is a pro-engineering, anti-MBA group of folks, but hopefully my perspective helps add a bit of color from the other side. I got a BS and MS in Computer Science and ended up working as a software engineer for a number of years. After a while, I was left wanting more, so I enrolled in an MBA program. IMO, 50-60% of classes in business school are fluff leadership rah-rah self-development bullshit. But…

As time has gone on, I really wonder if the canonical technical/non-technical split in leadership is really the right breakdown for companies. It frequently ends up being a risk item that leadership is so separate from the low-level revenue and cost generation activities of companies. Perhaps it would work better to distribute a lot of the administrative scaling, budgeting, type activities in favor of being more orga…

*successful not stressful...

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#129
> So why do they persist in promoting this education for management, which, according to mounting evidence, produces so much mismanagement?

> The answer is unfortunately obvious: with so many of their graduates getting to the “top”, why change? But there is another answer that is also becoming obvious: because at this top, too many of their graduates are corrupting the economy.

The MBA is a graduate degree that is the highest compensated of the Masters degrees that you can get from business schools. Here's why I think that is:

How do you put together economics, finance, accounting, organizational behavior, marketing, and operations, in a way that makes sense?

A lot of people have trouble thinking of these things both holistically and distinctly.

The MBA is both a high-level overview of these subjects, and a sustained study on putting them all together in an aligned way.

The degree says the owner has studied that specific body of knowledge rigorously and at length. It does not mean the owner has studied each component as in-depth as someone with a degree in any of these individual subjects.

I have a generalist MBA myself. But I supplemented my studies with a lot of time in the library studying books and journals on finance, statistics, computer science, and management. I tried to lock down my learning by logging each article and book, and I believe I had 400 items in my bibliographic database when I graduated - I understand the rest of my cohort used the bibliography tools built into Microsoft Word. I didn't get any networking value from the degree - I got it from a half-decent state school in Florida - most of my cohort was civil service, local accountants, and a couple of engineers and housewives.

I used R for my statistics project. The rest of my cohort used Excel.

For the capstone project, a business competition, I tracked my competition in spreadsheets for simple charting (every turn took about an hour of data input manually from pdf) - I don't believe the rest of my cohort did anything of the sort.

I was able to do a lot more than my cohort with the same education as my cohort. The business school was accredited by the same standards body as Harvard.

I don't know if I'm qualified to be a CEO yet. I like to say that I want to be qualified to run technology at a hedge fund. I'm continuing my education by signing up for the CFA, and I take my first test in December. Wish me luck.

But to answer Mintzberg's question - why keep promoting this education for management, which, according to mounting evidence, produces so much mismanagement? - This is the wrong question. The course material is correct. The problem is selection bias. Those looking for the fastest route to career acceleration go for their MBAs - thus being, at least on paper, the best qualified to run firms. We need to get this education in the hands of the right people.

We can also address the problem on the CEO side by better aligning their compensation to long-term performance instead of short-term performance measures. But shareholders are fairly impatient, and boards of directors seem to like the idea of juicing short-term performance.

Re: MBAs as CEOs

#130

I'm aware that HN is a pro-engineering, anti-MBA group of folks, but hopefully my perspective helps add a bit of color from the other side. I got a BS and MS in Computer Science and ended up working as a software engineer for a number of years. After a while, I was left wanting more, so I enrolled in an MBA program. IMO, 50-60% of classes in business school are fluff leadership rah-rah self-development bullshit. But…

But certainly they care about hiring competent people and being able to recognize, retain and reward competent people within their organization.

In contrast, if your organization is full of business-oriented people, it becomes a self-reinforcing downwards spiral, because:

- business oriented developers are biased towards competition. development is a collaborative effort.

- many business oriented developers downplay the role of engineering, wanting to be closer to management. because of this they might not be technically competent. When hiring, they will hire more people like them.

- since business oriented developers think programming is just means towards an end, they will focus on features and disregard maintainability and other important non-functional requirements. they force other people to take care of those issues for them, creating a toxic team dynamic ("want it fixed? then you fix it") and impacting their performance metrics.

If you have your MBA and you don't really like engineering because you consider it as being a lower form of work, then don't be an engineer. Do something else.

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