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CERN experiment discovers five new particles

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Re: CERN experiment discovers five new particles

#121
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matter fields are indeed a real thing. a Google Books search will reveal hundreds of books etc. They're also called fermionic field. Here's the full range of elementary particles, all 19 of them, in the Standard Model: Fermions: - Leptons (6) (electrons, neutrinos etc.) - Quarks (6) (protons and neutrons are made of this) Bosons: - Gauge Bosons (aka Force Carriers) (4) - Higgs Boson (gives mass to stuff) (1) What cla…

This is the best summary I've read (not that I've read much) but it really puts things in perspective. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to try to summarize to make sure I understand: The properties of protons, neutrons, and electrons that make them unique/distinct from each other (mass, electric charge) arise from the composition of each out of smaller particles, which each are/carry/act as the respective mass…

The properties of protons, neutrons, and electrons that make them unique/distinct from each other (mass, electric charge) arise from the composition of each out of smaller particles, which each are/carry/act as the respective mass + charge + the other properties.

Protons and neutrons are composite, made out of two up and one down respectively two down and one up quark. Plus gluons holding them together. There are also four other quarks, bottom, top, charm, and strange. And of course one antiquark for each of the six quarks. There is a huge number of particles made out of quarks, called hadrons. Hadrons are either baryons like the proton and neutron made out of three quarks, or mesons made out of one quark and one anti quark. There are also exotic things like tetraquarks.

Electrons are, as far as we know, fundamental and not made out of other particles. The same goes for the muon, the tau, and the three accompanying neutrinos. There is again an antiparticle for each particle. This group is called leptons.

The properties of composite particles are determined by their constituents, but not in a trivial way. The mass for example is usually bigger than the mass of the constituents because the binding energy contributes to the mass.

Is there any theory as to what this "looks" like? Or is the best we can do "it's a bunch of these things mashed together and the only way to see them individually is to bash them together until they break"?

Quantum chromo dynamics is the theory of quarks and gluons.

If the strong and weak forces are particles, does that mean they're 1: literally everywhere, not necessarily stuck to any larger particle and 2: like glue?

The electromagnetic, the strong, and the weak interaction are mediated by their respective bosons, we also suspect it for gravity. You can observe the bosons on their own, they are not like springs and rubber bands connecting particles between wich they mediated forces. Actually there are not really any photons bouncing back and forth between two electrons pushing them away from each other due to their like charges. But I can not offer any good model, that is something I never managed to really understand.

I'm also confused about the relationship between gravity and mass, given that the higgs is stated as corresponding to mass, mass is traditionally thought of as what gravity acts upon, but the wikipedia chart states that gravity acts upon all particles.

Most mass comes from [binding] energy, the Higgs mechanism contributes only a small bit. The Higgs boson has nothing to to with that at all, it is just an excitation in the Higgs field. Gravity acts on energy. As far as I can tell mass is just an abstraction. If you put massless photons into a mirror box to bounce around, they add energy to the box which makes the box harder to move, i.e. you have to push against the photons hitting the wall you are pushing on. As a convenient abstraction we say the box got heavier, it has more mass, but there is actually nothing fundamentally heavy in the box, the photons have no mass, only their energy and momentum with which they hit the wall making it harder for you to push it.

I am not a physicist, take all this with grains of salt.

Re: CERN experiment discovers five new particles

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you've heard of particle/wave duality, or how really tiny things are never exactly in only one place. There are a set of wave equations that describe how this works. There are also two kinds of things. Some things can go thru eachother, like photons. Other things bounce off eachother, like neutrons (and other things considered matter). The equations for the kind of things that bounce off eachother would be a…

There are also two kinds of things. Some things can go thru eachother, like photons. Other things bounce off eachother, like neutrons (and other things considered matter). This is not true. The difference between bosons and fermions lies in the way swapping two of them works. The carriers of the weak force, W and Z bosons, are for example electrically charged and can therefore scatter off each other. Gluons, the carr…

The difference between bosons and fermions lies in the way swapping two of them works.

That sounds like what Wikipedia says is the rigorous version of the Pauli exclusion principle[1].

I was trying to get close to the not-rigorous version (1st paragraph of the link) in terms that are easily understandable without having taken a university QM course. I guess can/can't be in the same place at the same time would be a better approximation of it?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle

Re: CERN experiment discovers five new particles

#123
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Matter fields are indeed a real thing. a Google Books search will reveal hundreds of books etc. They're also called fermionic field. Here's the full range of elementary particles, all 19 of them, in the Standard Model: Fermions: - Leptons (6) (electrons, neutrinos etc.) - Quarks (6) (protons and neutrons are made of this) Bosons: - Gauge Bosons (aka Force Carriers) (4) - Higgs Boson (gives mass to stuff) (1) What cla…

This is the best summary I've read (not that I've read much) but it really puts things in perspective. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to try to summarize to make sure I understand: The properties of protons, neutrons, and electrons that make them unique/distinct from each other (mass, electric charge) arise from the composition of each out of smaller particles, which each are/carry/act as the respective mass…

Thanks everybody for piling on to explain how and where I'm wrong.

I read all the comments and I'm probably two or three percent closer to understanding this. Maybe I'll devote some more brain energy to it later :)

Re: CERN experiment discovers five new particles

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are also two kinds of things. Some things can go thru eachother, like photons. Other things bounce off eachother, like neutrons (and other things considered matter). This is not true. The difference between bosons and fermions lies in the way swapping two of them works. The carriers of the weak force, W and Z bosons, are for example electrically charged and can therefore scatter off each other. Gluons, the carr…

The difference between bosons and fermions lies in the way swapping two of them works. That sounds like what Wikipedia says is the rigorous version of the Pauli exclusion principle[1]. I was trying to get close to the not-rigorous version (1st paragraph of the link) in terms that are easily understandable without having taken a university QM course. I guess can/can't be in the same place at the same time would be a b…

Loosely peaking the wave function of a quantum mechanical system specifies for each possible state of the system the probability of finding the system in that state. Actually it is not the probability but the probability amplitude, a complex number from which you can derive the probability by squaring it.

Assume you have two identical fermions, say two electrons, the first one in state x and the second one in state y. State means everything required to fully describe the particle, for example position and spin. Therefore x stands for the first electron being in a specific position and having a specific spin, similarly for y and the second electron.

Let A(x, y) be the probability amplitude for finding the first electron in state x and the second electron in state y, i.e. the first argument of A is the state of the first electron, the second argument is the state of the second electron. Now swap the two electrons, take the first and put it where the second one is, take the second one and put it where the first one was. Also change the spins as necessary. The probability amplitude is now A(y, x), the first electron is now in state y, the second electron is now in state x.

The important thing is now that the two electrons are identical, you can not tell the difference between the situations before and after swapping the two electrons. Had you painted one electron blue and one red, then you could easily tell the difference, but without that you can not. That was the entire point of swapping the electrons, bringing them into exactly the state of the other one.

But if you can not distinguish the two situations, then it better be the case, that they have the same probability, i.e. A(x, y) = A(y, x). But that is not quite right, A is the probability amplitude, not the probability. It turns out that there are actually two valid possibilities, A(x, y) = A(y, x) and A(x, y) = -A(y, x). As mentioned at the beginning, you get the probability by squaring the probability amplitude, so that the minus sign in the second case vanishes.

The first possibility is how bosons (particles with integer spin, for example photons and gluons) behave, the second one is how fermions (particles with half integer spin, for example quarks and electrons but also helium-3) behave. Now we finally arrive at the important point, what happens if both electrons are in the same state, i.e. if the first electron is in state x and the second electron is also in state x. Then the probability amplitude is A(x, x) and we have to satisfy A(x, x) = -A(x, x) because electrons are fermions.

But there is only one complex number identical to its negative and that is of course zero. Therefore the probability amplitude and in consequence the probability obtained by squaring the probability amplitude are both zero, which means that the probability of finding the system in the state where the first electron is in state x and the second electron is also in state x, is zero. The two electrons or more generally two fermions can never be in the exact same state.

Re: CERN experiment discovers five new particles

#125
For more in-depth information see the CERN press release "LHCb observes an exceptionally large group of particles" at https://home.cern/about/updates/2017/03/lhcb-observes-except...

Or, the paper "Observation of five new narrow Ω0c states decaying to Ξ+cK−" is available at https://arxiv.org/abs/1703.04639

And finally, the LHCb web site section on "Observation of five new narrow Ωc0 excited states" at http://lhcb-public.web.cern.ch/lhcb-public/Welcome.html#Omeg...

Re: CERN experiment discovers five new particles

#126
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you clarify? In my mind "prediction" != "assumption" != "theory" and "observation" != "proof" Basically I seem to disagree with everything you wrote.

This is my understanding. You start with a hypothesis with no assumption of truth. Using that hypothesis you make a prediction and then use observation to test your prediction . During your observation you may find proof that your prediction was correct, which in turn provides support for your hypothesis . Once sufficient evidence is found for a hypothesis , it becomes a theory .

I'd say you have a theory from which you deduce a model that consists of various assumptions plus a hypothesis. If this hypothesis has not yet been compared to a set of observations, then it is also a prediction about that set of observations.

Also, the distinction between assumption and hypothesis is subjective, it depends what aspect of the phenomenon you care about at that time. Another term for assumption could be "auxiliary hypothesis".

Proof refers to the set of logical deductions (from theory + assumptions) that lead to the model, it has nothing to do with the observations.

Re: CERN experiment discovers five new particles

#127
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my understanding. You start with a hypothesis with no assumption of truth. Using that hypothesis you make a prediction and then use observation to test your prediction . During your observation you may find proof that your prediction was correct, which in turn provides support for your hypothesis . Once sufficient evidence is found for a hypothesis , it becomes a theory .

I'd say you have a theory from which you deduce a model that consists of various assumptions plus a hypothesis . If this hypothesis has not yet been compared to a set of observations , then it is also a prediction about that set of observations . Also, the distinction between assumption and hypothesis is subjective, it depends what aspect of the phenomenon you care about at that time. Another term for assumption coul…

It's important not to confuse theory with scientific theory. They have very different meanings. In everyday speech a theory is roughly equivalent to a guess. In science, a theory is a well tested explanation of some phenomenon.

It's always hypothesis then theory. Your hypothesis may be based on other theories, but it is itself not a theory.

From Wikipedia: "The scientific method involves the proposal and testing of hypotheses, by deriving predictions from the hypotheses about the results of future experiments, then performing those experiments to see whether the predictions are valid. This provides evidence either for or against the hypothesis. When enough experimental results have been gathered in a particular area of inquiry, scientists may propose an explanatory framework that accounts for as many of these as possible. This explanation is also tested, and if it fulfills the necessary criteria (see above), then the explanation becomes a theory. This can take many years, as it can be difficult or complicated to gather sufficient evidence."

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