Microsoft Blocks Windows 7/8 Updates on AMD Ryzen and Intel Kaby Lake Systems • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft Blocks Windows 7/8 Updates on AMD Ryzen and Intel Kaby Lake Systems

#121

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Thu, Mar 16, 2017, 2:23 PM UTC

0x4a42 wrote: post #107

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, yes, how absolutely shocking that Microsoft should choose not to support a processor that didn't even exist at the time that version of Windows was released. Why, everyone knows, especially on HN, that updating and retesting software costs nothing at all and so that's why we all eagerly go back and retrofit all versions of software we've ever released, no matter how old, to support the latest hardware just as soo…

Miscrosft doesn't need to support these CPUs, they are x86_64 compatibles. You can install, says, Windows 2000 on an AMD Ryzen and it would just work.

See my posting at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13884950 for an explanation of why that's not actually true.

Re: Microsoft Blocks Windows 7/8 Updates on AMD Ryzen and Intel Kaby Lake Systems

#122

Post by marcosdumay » Thu, Mar 16, 2017, 2:38 PM UTC

cptskippy wrote: post #105

rincebrain wrote: post #39

This seems like they have enormous pressure from on high to make sure Windows 7 doesn't become another XP that they have to support for 15 years By Any Means Necessary. If circumstances were different, I might even be applauding them for taking strong corrective actions against another XP doomsday scenario, or for moving to rolling release, both of which seem like great plans. The reason I'm not is that Windows 10 fe…

> Windows 10 feels unfinished and buggy to me. Everyone makes this point, no one elaborates it. How is it buggy and unfinished? I'm using it on 5 different devices with vastly different hardware profiles (1 modern gaming rig, 1 old gaming rig, 1 low end laptop, 1 convertible laptop, and 1 SFF PC) and they're all rock solid. I also use Windows 7 on my work laptop daily and moving back and forth between the two OSes da…

MS could start by fixing the start menu bug that does not allow you to start all of the installed software from there.

There are many more things. The reason nobody is giving examples is because those are small things, that we circumvent in seconds and move on (to face the next bug). Most people don't even remember what the problem is. I only remember about the start menu bug because it's so kafkanian.

Re: Microsoft Blocks Windows 7/8 Updates on AMD Ryzen and Intel Kaby Lake Systems

#123

Post by Willamin » Thu, Mar 16, 2017, 2:44 PM UTC

cptskippy wrote: post #105

rincebrain wrote: post #39

This seems like they have enormous pressure from on high to make sure Windows 7 doesn't become another XP that they have to support for 15 years By Any Means Necessary. If circumstances were different, I might even be applauding them for taking strong corrective actions against another XP doomsday scenario, or for moving to rolling release, both of which seem like great plans. The reason I'm not is that Windows 10 fe…

> Windows 10 feels unfinished and buggy to me. Everyone makes this point, no one elaborates it. How is it buggy and unfinished? I'm using it on 5 different devices with vastly different hardware profiles (1 modern gaming rig, 1 old gaming rig, 1 low end laptop, 1 convertible laptop, and 1 SFF PC) and they're all rock solid. I also use Windows 7 on my work laptop daily and moving back and forth between the two OSes da…

It feels buggy and unfinished to me because of the inconsistent ui. For example, look at the inconsistencies of right-click context menus: http://nl.pcmweb.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/uploads/2016/01/...

Re: Microsoft Blocks Windows 7/8 Updates on AMD Ryzen and Intel Kaby Lake Systems

#124

Post by Mithaldu » Thu, Mar 16, 2017, 2:58 PM UTC

marcosdumay wrote: post #122

cptskippy wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Windows 10 feels unfinished and buggy to me. Everyone makes this point, no one elaborates it. How is it buggy and unfinished? I'm using it on 5 different devices with vastly different hardware profiles (1 modern gaming rig, 1 old gaming rig, 1 low end laptop, 1 convertible laptop, and 1 SFF PC) and they're all rock solid. I also use Windows 7 on my work laptop daily and moving back and forth between the two OSes da…

MS could start by fixing the start menu bug that does not allow you to start all of the installed software from there. There are many more things. The reason nobody is giving examples is because those are small things, that we circumvent in seconds and move on (to face the next bug). Most people don't even remember what the problem is. I only remember about the start menu bug because it's so kafkanian.

> MS could start by fixing the start menu bug that does not allow you to start all of the installed software from there.

That is super vague and not usefully googlable. Link?

Re: Microsoft Blocks Windows 7/8 Updates on AMD Ryzen and Intel Kaby Lake Systems

#125

Post by reacweb » Thu, Mar 16, 2017, 2:59 PM UTC

josteink wrote: post #50

CommanderData wrote: post #35

Yesterday I received a Gigabyte Brix i5 and wanted to run Windows 7. The process was painful. The Brix has no USB 2.0 ports and no legacy USB in the bios - So keyboard and mouse were non functional. Presumably the ISO was built pre-USB 3.0 era. So I had to customize a untouched image with USB 3 drivers. Drivers had to be downloaded from Gigabytes website. All to learn that MS update doesn't work with Kaby Lake. Great…

> Yesterday I received a Gigabyte Brix i5 and wanted to run Windows 7. The process was painful. Allow me to rephrase that: "Yesterday I received quite modern hardware and wanted to run Ubuntu 9.04. The process was painful." Would you sympathize with anyone who made such a claim? I certainly wouldn't. Does anyone even remember its "cute" codename? Nope. It's that old. And Windows 7 is as old as Ubuntu 9.04. It's about…

I think Windows 7 SP1 (out in February 22, 2011) is closer to Ubuntu 11.04, but your point remains fully valid.

Re: Microsoft Blocks Windows 7/8 Updates on AMD Ryzen and Intel Kaby Lake Systems

#126

Post by Mithaldu » Thu, Mar 16, 2017, 3:06 PM UTC

Willamin wrote: post #123

cptskippy wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Windows 10 feels unfinished and buggy to me. Everyone makes this point, no one elaborates it. How is it buggy and unfinished? I'm using it on 5 different devices with vastly different hardware profiles (1 modern gaming rig, 1 old gaming rig, 1 low end laptop, 1 convertible laptop, and 1 SFF PC) and they're all rock solid. I also use Windows 7 on my work laptop daily and moving back and forth between the two OSes da…

It feels buggy and unfinished to me because of the inconsistent ui. For example, look at the inconsistencies of right-click context menus: http://nl.pcmweb.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/uploads/2016/01/...

That example is either out-dated or was not made with good care. On my system there are three types of menus and within each group they are consistent: http://i.imgur.com/ig4gvgc.png

- the ones Edge renders

- the ones the taskbar renders

- the ones rendered for pure window chrome

Also, some details between the groups differ, but they're still rendered with the same code and UX. What differs is only the styling, colors, padding, margins.

Re: Microsoft Blocks Windows 7/8 Updates on AMD Ryzen and Intel Kaby Lake Systems

#127

Post by cptskippy » Thu, Mar 16, 2017, 3:12 PM UTC

Willamin wrote: post #123

cptskippy wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Windows 10 feels unfinished and buggy to me. Everyone makes this point, no one elaborates it. How is it buggy and unfinished? I'm using it on 5 different devices with vastly different hardware profiles (1 modern gaming rig, 1 old gaming rig, 1 low end laptop, 1 convertible laptop, and 1 SFF PC) and they're all rock solid. I also use Windows 7 on my work laptop daily and moving back and forth between the two OSes da…

It feels buggy and unfinished to me because of the inconsistent ui. For example, look at the inconsistencies of right-click context menus: http://nl.pcmweb.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/uploads/2016/01/...

I'm not sure how inconsistent UI equates to buggy but I see this argument a lot and it's mostly unfounded. Those inconsistent UI screenshots are always different versions of the OS or different themes. I made my own comparison 2 months ago to show that it's not that bad.

http://i.imgur.com/nCmOrmn.png

The other annoying thing is that this is portrayed as a Microsoft thing. Linux Desktop UIs are horribly inconsistent but it's somehow ok. People just about lose their minds when Apple updates the UI of iTunes or Safari out of band with the rest of the OS.

Microsoft hasn't done much to bring GDI UI elements up to Modern UI specs and that's the main pain point. The consistency variations between UI elements in Modern UI apps comes down to individual Apps doing different things. That happens on all OSes with vendors like Adobe all the time.

Re: Microsoft Blocks Windows 7/8 Updates on AMD Ryzen and Intel Kaby Lake Systems

#128

Post by Mithaldu » Thu, Mar 16, 2017, 3:18 PM UTC

CommanderData wrote: post #35

Yesterday I received a Gigabyte Brix i5 and wanted to run Windows 7. The process was painful. The Brix has no USB 2.0 ports and no legacy USB in the bios - So keyboard and mouse were non functional. Presumably the ISO was built pre-USB 3.0 era. So I had to customize a untouched image with USB 3 drivers. Drivers had to be downloaded from Gigabytes website. All to learn that MS update doesn't work with Kaby Lake. Great…

> Running 10 feels like I've lost control over my own OS. It updates when it wants and I have no way of turning it off.

That one part is only partly correct. Windows 10 already contains the APIs required to have completely fine-grained control when to download updates, when to install updates, and even which ones to install now and which ones to leave on the list.

The difference is that with earlier OSes MS did make this choice easily accessible to every user of Windows regardless of their level of expertise. This resulted in massive security issues that hurt the internet at large.

Windows 10 still contains all the controls, but it has stopped providing easy and obvious GUIs for it and instead expects you to use administrator-level interfaces to talk to those systems if you desire so, thus effectively gating them behind a learning process.

Re: Microsoft Blocks Windows 7/8 Updates on AMD Ryzen and Intel Kaby Lake Systems

#129

Post by cptskippy » Thu, Mar 16, 2017, 3:21 PM UTC

reacweb wrote: post #113

cptskippy wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You act as if this is something unique to Microsoft. Ubuntu distro upgrades were so bad (don't know if they still are) that you were better off reformatting and reinstalling. If the upgrade didn't flat out brick the device, it was almost certain to screw up drivers and setting beyond repair of even more power users. Apple had it's fair share of El Capitan and Sierra upgrade brickings and those require you to take you…

I do ubuntu dist-upgrade since 2009. I have done 2 full reinstall. Once to try linux-mint. And another one a little latter when I bought a new ssd drive (switched to ubuntu gnome). The main upgrade issue was with systemd in 16.04: it found a dependency loop between net access and my nas drive and decided to cancel net access.

I ran Ubuntu on a netbook and a laptop from ~2007-2012. Wireless support was beyond awful and distro upgrades would break it beyond repair. There were also numerous bugs with Audio and their transition in desktop environments failed horribly.

Re: Microsoft Blocks Windows 7/8 Updates on AMD Ryzen and Intel Kaby Lake Systems

#130

Post by cptskippy » Thu, Mar 16, 2017, 3:27 PM UTC

jimmies wrote: post #109

cptskippy wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's Microsoft's fault that a vendor supplied drivers that were designed to keep fake competitor's devices from using their tech by disabling them? Microsoft isn't doing code reviews of drivers and it would be outrageous to expect them to do so.

Sure -- MS made it impossible to review the code given to them by the manufacturer. It's a Windows', or in other words, proprietary software problem. Do we have that problem with Linux?

Sure, off the top of my head Nvidia drivers contain a binary blob you don't get to see. Does it brick fake hardware? No but this is a very special case.

Is it out of the realm of possibility that a vendor could ship a kernel module with a proprietary binary that could damage your hardware? Absolutely.

Why would people accept these proprietary closed blobs over the open alternative drivers? Because the open drivers suck. Can you fix that? Not in the near term.

So how is this not a problem for Linux? It's a problem there too.