Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#121

Post by pharrington » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 6:29 PM UTC

tornadoboy55 wrote: post #103

pharrington wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're conflating a ton of different cultural issues (3rd wave feminism, UK's censorship fetish, etc) and removing them from their temporal context. Showgirls only came out 22 years ago; it was regarded as a bad movie, but it didn't generate much outrage.

See my sibling comment. If there's so much examples of things going tilted against men in most western countries, shouldn't you say there's at least some common thread across them all, an indicative cause to all these (different) symptoms.

See dang's reply. I don't know much about Iceland, so I can't comment there. The UK has a very strong history of banning "socially dangerous" material. Not only did you imagine an outrage against a hypothetical "Magic Melissa," and not only does such a movie actually exist and received none of that outrage, but the whole thought exercise directly contradicts your premise that western culture is obsessed with shaming men.

One huge problem, at least in the US, is the cult of social justice. By cult, I mean there is a status hierarchy among the social justice warriors; those at the top consistently shame and abuse perceived enemies, internal and external, and they operate with a high degree of secrecy while putting on a front of transparency (hence the constant Twittering). It is not "women of the west" attacking men, it is SJWs using the old and well understand tactics of high-control groups. Why were self-proclaimed feminists recently attacking Emma Watson and trying to dictate what she is and isn't allowed to do?

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#122

Post by ivemadeahugem » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 6:31 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #110

J-dawg wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what do you do when there simply aren't enough jobs for most men to "have their shit together"? What are all those men going to do when they have both no stake in the economy, and little or no chance of finding a woman to love them? What percentage of men like this can society handle before some sort of tipping point is reached? I refer you to this comment from "wingless" from another discussion currently on the f…

What I'd do is this: 1) Vote for politicians who are going to create real structural change in society, e.g. Bernie, not just systems maintainers like Hillary, or rich guys who want to rip us off, like the guy who won. (And really work at a local level to enact structural systems changes!) 2) Work to change the cultural baggage around one's value being tied to one's day job. Make it sexy to be a poet, writer, singer,…

I think it already is sexy to be a poet/writer/singer/whatever... those single women who don't want to marry are getting pregnant with "non-marriagable" men, after all. It becomes a question of, why become economically tied to these sexy losers.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#123

Post by dang » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 6:32 PM UTC

thrownblown wrote: post #118

dang wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, we asked you to stop and you didn't so we've banned you.

I'm kinda curious what they said.

I've unkilled the comment for you but you can see all the [dead] comments by setting 'showdead' to 'yes' in your profile, if you want to.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#124

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 6:34 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #109

tornadoboy55 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're really not. What's true is the experiences that led you to feel the way you do and the fact that you feel that way. But I didn't name a single experience or anecdote. These are all googleable facts..

Facts are data points. There are infinitely many, and they don't select themselves. Humans do that. You could as easily construct an opposite generality by picking different facts. The energy behind comments like this isn't intellectual curiosity. It's pain left over from painful experiences. That's important, maybe more important than intellectual curiosity. Almost certainly more important. But we don't get anywhere…

[deleted]

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#125

Post by thrownblown » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 6:36 PM UTC

emiliobumachar wrote: post #39

thrownblown wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my marriage, I bring home the bacon with a small SaaS and the wife is in graduate school. We split the raising of our child 50-50. I like it just fine. She doesn't. She's admittedly jealous of how much time I spend with my son, she resents having to continue on her career path and not being able to be a stay-t-home mom. She doesn't understand why I would rather raise my son than work a real programming job. We are…

Sorry to hear you're about to get a divorce. Here's some unsolicited, opinionated advice from my position of ignorance, take it with a grain of salt: If she wants to stay at home, let her. But make it clear you're happy with your job as is, and wants to be part of your child's life. Find some not-childcare-related housework that she can take off your hands to keep things fair. Preferably something you don't like anyw…

Obviously there's more to it than just the home/work life. But that's a big part.

I would be AOK with "letting" her stay home, although there's no letting this woman do anything, she does everything for herself just fine, thanks. She decided that she needed to continue her career to achieve her life goals of owning a home, paying for our child's college, those sorts of things.

TBH she's probably right, I'm a bit more "anarchy and freedom is what i want" and value my time and agency over money.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#126

Post by PKop » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 6:37 PM UTC

20160226 wrote: post #31

jokoon wrote: post #2

I've started some treatment recently, and for some reason I immediately started dating and looking for mates again. I quickly realized how difficult it is. You can't find women unless you have a job, while women have made outstanding progress in education and the workforce, and for some reason they have a hard time dating people who have a less comfortable situation than themselves. I don't want to ride the whole men…

You can't fight biology. Women are hardwired to look for men with resources or the ability to get them. It comes down to whether a man can provide the woman with a safe and clean place to have her babies. In the past, this signal has taken the form of physical strength, number of slaves, land, goats, whatever. Today, it's jobs and/or money. Then add a layer of the instinctive hunger for status within any social speci…

Not sure why getting downvoted.

To dismiss out of hand thousands of years of evolution and think the last 50+ years of modern societal change can completely counteract biological forces is.. wishful thinking?

I mean, this explanation is at least as good as any other speculation in this thread.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#127

Post by WhitneyLand » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 6:40 PM UTC

jokoon wrote: post #2

I've started some treatment recently, and for some reason I immediately started dating and looking for mates again. I quickly realized how difficult it is. You can't find women unless you have a job, while women have made outstanding progress in education and the workforce, and for some reason they have a hard time dating people who have a less comfortable situation than themselves. I don't want to ride the whole men…

Dove anyone have real data on what's nature vs. nurture? So many people make arguments on this important topic that depend on huge assumptions.

For example someone below said women won't mind dating men with less status once our culture evolves. Are we so sure of that?

This is not a criticism of females. I doubt any gender can be cultured out preference for physical attributes.

We can support equal rights and still acknowledge innate differences right?

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#128

Post by awg789 » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 6:51 PM UTC

Let me add some thoughts as well. It will be slightly tangential, but it will converge in the end...

Men and women are treated very differently for the same things. Think law: family courts, higher sentences for same crimes, domestic violence. Think universities: kangaroo courts for men (while these are technically for everyone, there is no shortage of complaints about "men not being supposed to use these laws this way"). Think culture: - men getting hurt? ok. women getting hurt? normalizing violence. - woman cries? let's help her. Man cries? he's so weak. - women sexually objectified? should be a crime. Men sexually objectified? be glad be find you useful. - attractive man that talks to you? nice. Unattractive man that talks to you? creep. - a man does not want to be in a relationship? man-child. A woman doesn't want to be in a relationship? you go girl. - a woman rapes a men? he probably wanted it. A man rapes a woman? that sick criminal.

There are many scholarships, internships, job offers that are exclusively for women. University admissions are also skewed towards women and other supposedly disadvantaged groups. Yet nobody wants to admit that by unfairly favoring women, you are also unfairly kicking out the men. (Am I the only one who thinks this is just a plain old discrimination?)

It is not too hard to find articles such as "what the workforce needs? more of women's perspective." or "science shows girls code better" or "10 reasons why men are over", or "the future is female".

Universities are banning the words "manpower", "mankind", and similar, yet everybody is preaching "mansplaining" and "manspreading".

One can only face the insults and discrimination for so long.

So when men are no longer interested in work, marriage, or women, or life - perhaps we should not be so surprised.

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#129

Post by mschuster91 » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 6:54 PM UTC

xt00 wrote: post #62

csa wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I think location may be part of the problem, I think it's a relatively small problem. IMHO, the biggest part of the problem is that many of these people are not employable, and due to having an enabler, are not motivated to become employable. There are lots of places in the Rust Belt looking for people to hire, but they need people who will show up clean and sober who will also do the work. These low requiremen…

Very true. It's definitely now a situation where we are dealing with the fallout from years of not dealing with the problem. Yea I recently read a story where a factory tried to hire around 50 people and could only hire a small number due to the vast majority failing drug tests. I was actually fairly surprised to hear that. So yea now we are dealing with the problem that has been festering and getting worse for years…

> could only hire a small number due to the vast majority failing drug tests.

I'm surprised mandatory drug testing is a thing in the US. In Germany it's actually outright illegal to do drug tests on employees (exceptions are rare, generally employers need reasonable suspicion (!) and the job must be safety critical, per http://www.zeit.de/karriere/beruf/2013-11/arbeitsrecht-droge...).

As long as it does not involve any heavy machinery, weapons or healthcare no one gives a f..k here what you do in your free time as long as you don't show up drunk or high on the job. And even then, many policemen and healthcare personnel has issues with alcohol abuse...

Re: Men not at work: Why so many men aged 25 to 54 are not working (2016)

#130

Post by Frondo » Sun, Mar 05, 2017, 6:55 PM UTC

J-dawg wrote: post #116

Frondo wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'd do is this: 1) Vote for politicians who are going to create real structural change in society, e.g. Bernie, not just systems maintainers like Hillary, or rich guys who want to rip us off, like the guy who won. (And really work at a local level to enact structural systems changes!) 2) Work to change the cultural baggage around one's value being tied to one's day job. Make it sexy to be a poet, writer, singer,…

>Make it sexy to be a poet, writer, singer, househusband, whatever, derive personal/interpersonal value from something other than a career. I would dearly love to believe this is possible, but I fear it's not. I don't think (most) women are capable of overcoming their programming to seek a high-status provider.

Really? I give women more credit than that.

For the first time in how many centuries, they don't have to be chained to some dud with a good job, and they're figuring out what they want.

Good poetry? Being a good househusband? There's going to be quality in that.

World's changing, and you can't get away being a schlub just cause you've got a good job anymore. I say bring it.