Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

huffingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 131 posts

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#121

Post by nikdaheratik »

unprepare wrote: post #76
kelnos wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're ignoring the fact the US already produces a surplus of skilled and qualified STEM professionals. That may be true, but we're hardly a homogeneous group. There certainly isn't a surplus of skilled and qualified professionals from my subgroup of STEM. And I suspect that's the one where most H-1B visa holders end up in. Not saying the system isn't abused: oh sweet jesus, it most certainly is. But throwing it ou…

> Why are they unable to find a job? >Are they less skilled and capable than a foreign worker? If so, then the foreign worker should get the job Are you under the impression that organizations when hiring are looking to maximize skill and disregard all other factors? once you reach 'good enough' skill level, its a cost minimization game. If the American costs twice as much, but the foreign worker is good enough - who…

From what I can tell, this is more an argument for collective bargaining than an argument against immigrant workers. I don't care which sector you're in, immigrants have the least amount of control over both the business and the politics, and yet they seem to take the most blame.

If there's a race to the bottom, maybe the solution is for workers to force capital to stop pitting them against each other.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#122

Post by nikdaheratik »

stupidcar wrote: post #21
lazaroclapp wrote: post #11

The problem with suggesting that the salary bar be set at the median of the lifetime salary, is that it does mean closing the door to current international students in the U.S., and to recent graduates recruited from universities abroad. The minimum bar for an immigrant should not be that they are better than half the people already employed here in their field, regardless of their stage in life. And, of course, most…

You're ignoring the fact the US already produces a surplus of skilled and qualified STEM professionals. Freedom of labor movement is a nice–to–have, but not some ideological priority that must be placed above all other considerations. The size of the pool of human capital is irrelevant if there simply aren't enough jobs on offer. The government of a country should be first and foremost advocates for, and protectors o…

I don't know what labor market you're talking about, but this STEM "surplus" is not very believable. Even if the exact match isn't always there, the people graduating with a degree in Biology or Civil Engineering are still more marketable from the skills it takes to get those degrees than many other graduates. The issue with "unemployable" college graduates has more to do with humanities majors who probably should have gone to technical or junior college and got a certificate in something practical than too many "STEM" graduates.

And a much better question: is the problem that we're letting too many immigrants in, or that capital has had control of the laws and culture so much that labor can't fight to get their fair share? Immigrants don't write the laws, they don't make the business decisions, all they do is sign up for a space in the H1B lottery.

If your field isn't getting its share, maybe it's not the immigrants who should be getting the blame for this.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#123

Post by YooLi »

lazaroclapp wrote: post #40
YooLi wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because being born inside those imaginary lines means people pay ($ + other) and therefore expect the group they contribute to to put them ahead of an outsider.

So, since California has a significant state tax, it would be a reasonable expectation for Californians to put other Californians first at all times? Also note that people living inside the country contribute to it, not just those born there or those who finished their 15+ years long naturalization process...

No it wouldn't be reasonable for the same reason saying no one should have locks on their doors and anyone should be free to go inside any house and use/live isn't reasonable.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#124

Post by kelnos »

unprepare wrote: post #76
kelnos wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're ignoring the fact the US already produces a surplus of skilled and qualified STEM professionals. That may be true, but we're hardly a homogeneous group. There certainly isn't a surplus of skilled and qualified professionals from my subgroup of STEM. And I suspect that's the one where most H-1B visa holders end up in. Not saying the system isn't abused: oh sweet jesus, it most certainly is. But throwing it ou…

> Why are they unable to find a job? >Are they less skilled and capable than a foreign worker? If so, then the foreign worker should get the job Are you under the impression that organizations when hiring are looking to maximize skill and disregard all other factors? once you reach 'good enough' skill level, its a cost minimization game. If the American costs twice as much, but the foreign worker is good enough - who…

Of course not. I'm talking about a (slightly) idealized scenario, responding to the original assertion (paraphrased), that the US should always take care of its citizens first. I just don't agree with that.

Obviously the H-1 program is flawed, and it allows for some pretty perverse incentives. But we should be focusing on fixing that, not applying some asinine protectionism policy.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#125

Post by kelnos »

YooLi wrote: post #120
kelnos wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't follow. My friends who are not US citizens and are here on H-1B visas (and have similar jobs as I do) pay significantly more in taxes than I do. And many of the programs those taxes pay into (like Social Security) are closed to them because they're non-citizens. Given that many US citizens don't start paying much if anything in the way of taxes until post-education (18-22), a non-citizen coming to the US…

Re: H1-B friends They pay taxes because now they are here within the imaginary lines and even if they don't get Social security, etc they are still benefitting from being here where they have all the other niceties of being here. Re: citizens don't start paying until 18. Their parents paid for them. Re: California Still part of a larger imaginary piece where everyone contribute. You're stuck thinking in terms of just…

>> Re: citizens don't start paying until 18.

> Their parents paid for them.

Quite the opposite. Their parents got a tax deduction simply because their children exist.

>> Re: California

> Still part of a larger imaginary piece where everyone contribute.

Exactly! Just as the entire world is part of a still larger imaginary piece! Borders are just squiggly lines drawn on a map. I have more in common with an engineering student in India than with most people in middle America: socially, culturally, etc.

> You're stuck thinking in terms of just $.

I was replying to a post of yours wherein you were making an argument about solely $.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#126

Post by webmaven »

Terr_ wrote: post #13
webmaven wrote: post #3

As headlines go, this one elicits a "Duh." However, the HN version of the headline omits "Trump is Right:", which I suppose is attention grabbing, especially from an outlet like HuffPo.

> As headlines go, this one elicits a "Duh." Well, whenever something isn't being done about X, that implies headlines saying "X!" probably aren't quite "duh" enough.

Not really...

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!" -- Upton Sinclair

And also...

"News Flash: Water is Wet! Government Has No Plan To Deal With Issue, Forms Committee."

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#127

Post by NetStrikeForce »

cpburns2009 wrote: post #119
NetStrikeForce wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's an objective reason to hire someone born locally vs someone born abroad? Apart from saying "patriotism", what other advantages does it offer?

I meant anyone already in the country and legally permitted to work, not the country you were born in. One objective reason to favor hiring a candidate living locally over one abroad is effective communication. The less local a candidate is, the greater the chance of poor communication due to increasingly diverging dialects and cultures and a lack of knowledge about the local culture.

> I meant anyone already in the country and legally permitted to work, not the country you were born in.

Ah, fair enough, I guess the reason is to "avoid the process of bringing someone from abroad". Sounds pragmatic enough to me.

> One objective reason to favor hiring a candidate living locally over one abroad is effective communication. The less local a candidate is, the greater the chance of poor communication due to increasingly diverging dialects and cultures and a lack of knowledge about the local culture.

You have just contradicted yourself; but let's bite: Even if this looks reasonable to you, it's nowhere near the problem you think it is and most of the times far outweighed by the other reasons you had to choose a non-locally-born-or-raised candidate.

It also decreases diversity, which studies show is an advantage and not just a nicety.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#128

Post by cpburns2009 »

NetStrikeForce wrote: post #127
cpburns2009 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant anyone already in the country and legally permitted to work, not the country you were born in. One objective reason to favor hiring a candidate living locally over one abroad is effective communication. The less local a candidate is, the greater the chance of poor communication due to increasingly diverging dialects and cultures and a lack of knowledge about the local culture.

> I meant anyone already in the country and legally permitted to work, not the country you were born in. Ah, fair enough, I guess the reason is to "avoid the process of bringing someone from abroad". Sounds pragmatic enough to me. > One objective reason to favor hiring a candidate living locally over one abroad is effective communication. The less local a candidate is, the greater the chance of poor communication due…

> You have just contradicted yourself; but let's bite: Even if this looks reasonable to you, it's nowhere near the problem you think it is and most of the times far outweighed by the other reasons you had to choose a non-locally-born-or-raised candidate.

I listed that was a reason, not the only reason. Skill sets being equal, the candidate with a knowledge of the local culture will likely be the better candidate. That's not saying choose the local candidate solely because he is local. I fail to see how it's contradictory. I think we're talking about two subtlety different things. I'm talking about where someone currently resides, not where that person was born or raised.

> It also decreases diversity, which studies show is an advantage and not just a nicety.

I'm pretty sure you meant "increases diversity" because that's the popular trend. I've never comprehended why the "diversity" attribute magically makes a candidate superior. Typically, "diversity" superficially targets ethnic diversity rather than diversity in expertise, experience, or thought. Granted, those aren't mutually exclusive but they're not mutually inclusive either.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#129

Post by NetStrikeForce »

cpburns2009 wrote: post #128
NetStrikeForce wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I meant anyone already in the country and legally permitted to work, not the country you were born in. Ah, fair enough, I guess the reason is to "avoid the process of bringing someone from abroad". Sounds pragmatic enough to me. > One objective reason to favor hiring a candidate living locally over one abroad is effective communication. The less local a candidate is, the greater the chance of poor communication due…

> You have just contradicted yourself; but let's bite: Even if this looks reasonable to you, it's nowhere near the problem you think it is and most of the times far outweighed by the other reasons you had to choose a non-locally-born-or-raised candidate. I listed that was a reason , not the only reason . Skill sets being equal, the candidate with a knowledge of the local culture will likely be the better candidate. T…

> I listed that was a reason, not the only reason. Skill sets being equal, the candidate with a knowledge of the local culture will likely be the better candidate.

Why is it better to know the local culture? E.g. would a local 65 year old be a better or worse culture fit than a 25 year from Canada?

> That's not saying choose the local candidate solely because he is local. I fail to see how it's contradictory. I think we're talking about two subtlety different things. I'm talking about where someone currently resides, not where that person was born or raised.

The problem is you haven't given a pragmatic reason why it's better to hire a local person. Well, in fall fairness that's not fully true, you might have implied less hassle during the hiring process (the remote person has to move locally, find a place, might need more time to settle due to that).

> I'm pretty sure you meant "increases diversity" because that's the popular trend.

I meant decreases, then I've meant that diversity is an advantage as per several studies. I'm sorry it was not clear.

I am the one referencing objective reasons, not sure why would you precisely call me out as a trend follower though.

> I've never comprehended why the "diversity" attribute magically makes a candidate superior. Typically, "diversity" superficially targets ethnic diversity rather than diversity in expertise, experience, or thought. Granted, those aren't mutually exclusive but they're not mutually inclusive either.

It's interesting that I keep seeing this "diversity of thought" mantra more and more often. I am seriously asking: Where did you get it from? I mean, it starts to look like a meme, so I wonder if it's on purpose.

Anyway, back to the point: What do you think diversity brings? And what do you think we refer to with "diversity"? For me it is:

- Different age

- Different gender

- Different socioeconomic background

- And any other thing that would've exposed you to different challenges in life: Your skin colour, your country of origin, your native language, where did you study, your level of studies, etc

Bringing e.g. more women or people from a different ethnic background to the team is a sure way to increase your so-called "diversity of thought". These people have probably faced different challenges than you did. Now if you want to hire someone that looks like you, grew in the same part of town, studied at the same place, had a similar socioeconomic background while growing up... Your chances of getting very similar points of view are very high.

And again, please spend some time researching the different studies, there are several by reputable sources. Apparently it is a fact that diversity is an advantage.

Re: Silicon Valley Is Using H-1B Visas to Pay Low Wages to Immigrants

#130

Post by YooLi »

kelnos wrote: post #125
YooLi wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re: H1-B friends They pay taxes because now they are here within the imaginary lines and even if they don't get Social security, etc they are still benefitting from being here where they have all the other niceties of being here. Re: citizens don't start paying until 18. Their parents paid for them. Re: California Still part of a larger imaginary piece where everyone contribute. You're stuck thinking in terms of just…

>> Re: citizens don't start paying until 18. > Their parents paid for them. Quite the opposite. Their parents got a tax deduction simply because their children exist. >> Re: California > Still part of a larger imaginary piece where everyone contribute. Exactly! Just as the entire world is part of a still larger imaginary piece! Borders are just squiggly lines drawn on a map. I have more in common with an engineering…

Negative. You can very easily go back to my posts and see where I explicitly say $ + other and mention the H1-Bs benefiting by being here even if they don't qualify for SS. Trying to frame what I said that way is just disingenuous.

Parents absolutely pay into the system when they have children even if they get a federal tax credit. The extra food they buy is more sales tax, etc. just think about it.

Post reply on HN