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A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

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Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#121
post #113
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess we look at the world very differently, because: > They are unlikely to ever agree with/be persuaded by complete inconsistent nonsense, however often it is repeated. Like, I mean nonsense that doesn't even have linguistic structure or maybe any meaning. If the US election hasn't persuaded you that complete gibberish can be persuasive when repeated endlessly, there's nothing I can say that will.

I'm aware of the theory of the "big lie", and the fact that neurons that fire together, wire together... But what about Feynman's injunction: "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool." Is that kind of empirical principle just out of reach for the standard human? In terms of repetition, I think David Hume's theory of causal inference is pretty relevant too. Just…

> Is that kind of empirical principle just out of reach for the standard human?

What if it's out of reach even for the best among us? To me it looks like many of our core beliefs cannot be shaped through reason, and are not the product of reason in the first place. Our convictions have simply been copied from our environment through osmosis.

I'm sure you can't help but notice the amount of groupthink that takes place in any community, whether in real life or right here. How does this groupthink come to be? People don't really change their minds in long discussion threads like these; it certainly doesn't feel like they do. And yet minds get changed or there wouldn't be groupthink. By reading, responding, and reading some more, we slowly change over time; like water carves its way through rock. We shape HN by our responses and in turn HN shapes us: the relation is symbiotic.

We can, sometimes, if we try really hard, and then only for a moment, apply real reason. I see no evidence that this has a big impact on what people believe and how they act, though. People who are good at formal reasoning are good at arriving at the correct answer in reasoning puzzles, but there is no matching improvement when it comes to the decisions they make in their life. It's pretty clear that even really smart people can't reason themselves out of their problems. This is a big problem for the view that convictions are the product of reason.

In contrast, the friends you keep and the media you consume does make a tremendous impact on what you believe and how you act. Change who your friends are and, through repeated exposure, your convictions will change subliminally.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#122
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not some people. It's most people. Investigating claims rigorously is very difficult, even for highly skilled individuals. And it usually has very minimal direct impact on the mundane aspects of day-to-day to life. For many, there isn't an easy answer to the question: "Why should I bother, given everything else going on in my life?" Honestly, it's pretty great how many people are willing to spend time and effort…

> I like to think I'm getting better at being generally skeptical and slowly layering together a coherent, mutually supportive set of usefully accurate mental models of how the world works You may be interested in the Meaningness project: http://meaningness.org

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Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#123
post #28
post #16

>Hitler's rules sound vaguely familiar. I don't think comparing Hillary to Hitler is that appropriate.

Can I ask you a question? Are you trolling or what are your aiming here? Now it's of course downvoted to oblivion, but I'd like to know why even here, amongst smart people, we go down into so cheap comments and even try to defend changes that will eventually make lifes of people like me a living hell.

It's ridiculous to compare Trump to Hitler. It's a childish emotional response from people who have spent a lot of their adult life in left leaning echo chambers.

If you have a policy you want to criticize, by all means do. Don't shut your brain off and try to imply the president is the same as a man responsible for genocide. It puts you in the same camp as the people claiming Obama is a closet Muslim terrorist.

>Now it's of course downvoted to oblivion

Don't talk about downvotes, it makes for boring conversation.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#124
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I like to think I'm getting better at being generally skeptical and slowly layering together a coherent, mutually supportive set of usefully accurate mental models of how the world works You may be interested in the Meaningness project: http://meaningness.org

Page doesn't load.

How deliciously Nihilistic.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#126
post #121
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm aware of the theory of the "big lie", and the fact that neurons that fire together, wire together... But what about Feynman's injunction: "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself -- and you are the easiest person to fool." Is that kind of empirical principle just out of reach for the standard human? In terms of repetition, I think David Hume's theory of causal inference is pretty relevant too. Just…

> Is that kind of empirical principle just out of reach for the standard human? What if it's out of reach even for the best among us? To me it looks like many of our core beliefs cannot be shaped through reason, and are not the product of reason in the first place. Our convictions have simply been copied from our environment through osmosis. I'm sure you can't help but notice the amount of groupthink that takes place…

Ok. I think most of this sounds reasonable. We do necessarily adopt the attitudes and dispositions of those we associate with. HN is a pretty ambiguous place from that perspective: an internet gold-rush town inhabited by those who feel the need to justify/discuss their position by engaging online.

In a spirit of hopeful insight into what's going on, I'm linking to the Wikipedia page for Skagway, Alaska.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skagway,_Alaska

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but lean a little closer, stranger, and i'll whisper the truth into your ear: the "two sides" are unequal in their abilities for evaluative thought, self righteous zealotry, and dogmatism. an honest attempt at critical evaluation will go nowhere if your evaluating apparatus is garbage. The very fact that both sides are convinced there are two sides suggests this is a false statement. The "sides", really the false d…

We have two political parties in the United States. Do you believe the voters for each side are at parity in their ability to understand reality? Do you believe it is helpful to suggest people choose neither?

The idea that having two de facto political parties means there are only two sides and you have to pick one of them is part of the lie. You do understand you can vote for Democrats for one office, Republicans for other offices, write your own name in for a third office, vote Green for a fourth office, and completely abstain on a final office when you either dislike both candidates or feel to ill-informed to cast a vote, right? But "choosing a side" goes way beyond voting, and in this election both 'sides' choose to vote against a side, not for one.

And as for disparity in the understanding of voters of these fictitious sides, the side that likes to claim the other side is uneducated and ignorant is, statistically speaking, less educated. That, too, is part of the lie.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#128
post #44
post #13

Repetition makes lies seem true, but repetition also makes truth seem true. All persuasion (and indoctrination) happens through repetition, whether in a classroom setting, a forum like this one, or in sales. This realization is also deeply depressing, because it means you're doomed to repeat yourself over and over if you want to persuade people. Let's take Noam Chomsky for instance. He gives more than a hundred talks…

Richard Stallman is another example of someone who gives the same handful of speeches over and over (many times in almost exactly the same words). I've heard him describe over and over again the wastefulness of not being able to write software to interact with a university printer because the printer manufacturer choose to keep the necessary details secret.

his copyright and community talk has stayed with me since I heard it 12 years ago, it certainly was special (well argued) and left a lasting impression.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#129

I wish once people realised this, they had the courage to apply this to their own dearly held beliefs, particularly political or social ones - how many of those are just lies repeated ad nauseum that clearly aren't true? But I think most peoples reaction is just to say "Yeah! that's totally what those other people do that our side never does because we're right.".

>But I think most peoples reaction is just to say "Yeah! that's totally what those other people do that our side never does because we're right.". to guard against this, as soon as i am aware of a catchphrase or common talking point, i mentally deconstruct it and find the truth. frighteningly, the most commonly repeated verbiages are, should we say, misleading. but lean a little closer, stranger, and i'll whisper the…

but lean a little closer, stranger, and i'll whisper the truth into your ear: the "two sides" are unequal in their abilities for evaluative thought, self righteous zealotry, and dogmatism. an honest attempt at critical evaluation will go nowhere if your evaluating apparatus is garbage.

Of course everyone will think the two sides are unequal, with the side that isn't theirs getting the worst of it.

Re: A glitch in the human psyche that equates repetition with truth

#130
post #69
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the model is wrong, because it presumes people are rational agents that change their mind either through careful evaluation of the arguments or by outsourcing this rational evaluation to a trustworthy person. This model doesn't take repetition at all into consideration, so I don't think it holds up empirically. Back in Aristotle's day it was about Ethos, Pathos, and Logos. I don't think that model has stood t…

Ok, I didn't mean to beg the question by simply claiming that people can rationally evaluate statements. The things people learn are not noise. They have structure, they have hidden consistencies. Whatever you think of the rationality or otherwise of thought, surely you will agree that trying to learn inconsistent facts is going to be more trouble than learning consistent facts which support each other in a cumulativ…

> People might identify with the opinions of a politician because they already hold those opinions,

Agree and I think it is even more than that. It is about how genuine they seem. I've listen to Hillary, Trump, Sanders and Obama, and some just naturally sound more genuine. Obama seemed genuine, like he believed what he was saying, Trump and Sanders as well. But not Hillary. She said all the right things, she was very polite, and seemed to be personable with jokes and remarks sprinkled here and there. But overall she sounded fake and scripted.

I posit, hearing someone who seems to truly believe what they say is a solid first step in persuading others to change their opinions. Otherwise it becomes an uphill battle and it is just pandering to people who already believe and agree with the argument.

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