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Magic Leap’s technology may be years away from completion

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Re: Magic Leap’s technology may be years away from completion

#121
post #77

Can anyone name a company that raised significant money pre-launch in a party round and that turned out okay? Color, Clinkle, Theranos, Magic Leap... they all have that in common. I'd be interested if there are counter examples.

What's a significant amount of money?

Solexa raised 130MUSD pre-launch: http://41j.com/blog/2016/01/a-solexa-story/

Quite a new life science/biotech companies do.

Re: Magic Leap’s technology may be years away from completion

#122
post #85
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not the big unsolved problem with augmented reality. Those are all problems VR systems can already solve with enough money and transistors behind them. The AR big problem is displaying dark. You can put bright things on the display, but not dark ones. Microsoft demos their VR systems only in environments with carefully controlled dim lighting. The same is true of Meta. Laster just puts a dimming filter in fron…

Why can't you "just" use a camera and project the light with "standard" vr technology?

The main issue with this approach is that the video pipeline adds dozens of milliseconds of latency, and it becomes awkward to interact with the physical environment. You couldn't play AR pong for example.

Re: Magic Leap’s technology may be years away from completion

#123
post #19

So VR is hard enough - to avoid jitter that makes users feel sick you have to respond to a user's head movement, render a new frame with the new information the user should see, respond to any button presses, then draw the frame, in under 14-20ms. Magic Leap was always a much more difficult problem... they have to respond to a user's head movement, parse the scene the user is looking at (which could be anything), fig…

Isn't the head-tracking separate from the graphics rendering? I mean, you could just render onto an area that's somewhat larger than your fov, and select some area every couple of ms based on the head movement.

You want to integrate rendered objects onto the physical world, so you have to know exactly the pose these objects should be rendered at as if seen from your point of view. The objects transforms are piloted by the head tracking. Usually with pose prediction thrown in the mix to squash latency.

Re: Magic Leap’s technology may be years away from completion

#124

Wow. So if Magic Leap is vaporware, does that leave Microsoft as the only ones publicly making progress in AR? Plenty of companies are shipping VR, but AR ends up being the future, HoloLens is building up quite a lead.

ODG has had AR glasses on the market for longer than Hololens, with an actual glasses form factor, running on Android, and should be announcing their new model at CES2017.

Re: Magic Leap’s technology may be years away from completion

#125
post #5

Not surprising, given that the hype train was billowing at full steam. A friend of a friend interviewed there and eventually walked away saying "Wow. That is a lot of cool-aid" Meanwhile, teams like Oculus are reportedly trying to sidestep AR by investing in "mixed reality", which will bring live camera feeds in to VR, with screens still covering both eyes.

Does AR explicitly exclude camera+screen? I always thought that stuff like pokemon go and any similar "paste some 3d over a camera feed in real time" stuff counted as augmented reality.

We distinguish "video see-through" and "optical see-through" Augmented Reality.

The first one is mainly solved, the second one is way harder due to head tracking latency, computer vision latency, and user-dependent eye projection.

Re: Magic Leap’s technology may be years away from completion

#126
post #45

> But at least one of these videos — showing an alien invader game that let the wearer of the supposed headset or glasses make use of real-world objects — was created by visual effects studio Weta Workshop. Prior to today, it was believed Weta had simply created the visual assets for the game. However, The Information reveals the entire video was created by the studio. Was this ever really in doubt? You don't have to…

Well yes, you do have to have an engineer mindset to pick this type of details.

Re: Magic Leap’s technology may be years away from completion

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So VR is hard enough - to avoid jitter that makes users feel sick you have to respond to a user's head movement, render a new frame with the new information the user should see, respond to any button presses, then draw the frame, in under 14-20ms. A bit of a tangent, but: for some people, it's impossible for VR to avoid making them feel sick. It's fundamental to them wearing a VR headset rather than a technical chall…

Isn't it more likely to be lag and inner ear related, not related to light angles? Why do you think it's light angles?

It's hotly debated, and the literature is often in conflict as to the exact cause of simulator sickness. Regardless of the exact reason, sickness of roughly half the population appears to be somehow fundamental to VR.

Here's some interesting reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulator_sickness

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5265985

> In a study conducted by U.S. Army Research Institute for the Behavioral and Social Sciences in a report published May 1995 titled "Technical Report 1027 - Simulator Sickness in Virtual Environments", out of 742 pilot exposures from 11 military flight simulators, "approximately half of the pilots (334) reported post-effects of some kind: 250 (34%) reported that symptoms dissipated in less than 1 hour, 44 (6%) reported that symptoms lasted longer than 4 hours, and 28 (4%) reported that symptoms lasted longer than 6 hours. There were also 4 (1%) reported cases of spontaneously occurring flashbacks."

Simulator Sickness in Virtual Environments (PDF): http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA295861

Some interesting quotes from the report:

Expected incidence and severity of simulator sickness in virtual environments

> In an analysis of data from 10 U.S. Navy and Marine Corps flight simulators, Kennedy, Lilienthal, Berbaum, Baltzley, and McCauley (1989) found that approximately 20% to 40% of military pilots indicated at least one symptom following simulator exposure. McCauley and Sharkey (1992) pointed out that pilots tend to be less susceptible to motion sickness than the general population due to a self-selection process based on their resistance to motion sickness. Since VE technologies will be aimed at a more general population, such selection against sickness may not occur. Thus, McCauley and Sharkey suggested that sickness may be more common in virtual environments than in simulators.

Findings

> Although there is debate as to the exact cause or causes of simulator sickness, a primary suspected cause is inconsistent information about body orientation and motion received by the different senses, known as the cue conflict theory. For example, the visual system may perceive that the body is moving rapidly, while the vestibular system perceives that the body is stationary. Inconsistent, non-natural information within a single sense has also been prominent among suggested causes.

> Although a large contingent of researchers believe the cue conflict theory explains simulator sickness, an alternative theory was reviewed as well. Forty factors shown or believed to influence the occurrence or severity of simulator sickness were identified. Future research is proposed.

Vection

> One phenomenon closely involved with simulator sickness is that of illusory self-motion, known as vection. Kennedy et a1. (1988) stated that visual representations of motion have been shown to affect the vestibular system. Thus, they conclude that the motion patterns represented in the visual displays of simulators may exert strong influences on the vestibular system. Kennedy, Berbaum, et al. (1993) stated that the impression of vection produced in a simulator determines both the realism of the simulator experience and how much the simulator promotes sickness. They suggested that the most basic level of realism is determined by the strength of vection induced by a stimulus. For a stimulus which produces a strong sense of vection, correspondence between the simulated and real-world stimuli determines whether or not the stimulus leads to sickness. Displays which produce strong vestibular effects are likely to produce the most simulator sickness (Kennedy, et al., 1988). Thus, Hettinger et al. (1990) hypothesized that vection must be experienced before sickness can occur in fixed-base simulators.

> While viewing each of three 15-minute motion displays, subjects rated the strength of experienced feelings of vection using a potentiometer. In addition, before the first display and after each of the three displays, the subjects completed a questionnaire which addressed symptoms of simulator sickness. Of the 15 subjects, 10 were classified as sick, based on their questionnaire score. As for vection, subjects tended to report either a great deal of vection or none at all. In relating vection to sickness, it was found that of the 5 subjects who reported no vection, only 1 became sick; of the remaining 10 subjects who had experienced vection, 8 became sick. Based on their results, Hettinger et al. concluded that visual displays that produce vection are more likely to produce simulator sickness. It is also likely that individuals who are prone to experience vection may be prone to experience sickness. It was mentioned earlier in this report that a wider field- of-view produces more vection and, thus, is believed to increase the incidence and severity of sickness (Kennedy et al., 1989). Anderson and Braunstein (1985), however, induced vection using only a small portion of the central visual field and 30% of their subjects experienced motion sickness.

Re: Magic Leap’s technology may be years away from completion

#128
post #104

What is troubling about AR/MR which I feel a lot of people overlook is the limited FOV. From the demo videos shown by Magic Leap (and Hololens) on YouTube it feels as if the entire FOV is available, which is barely the case - the Hololens has an FOV of 120x120 and Magic Leap is said to have a lower angle than that. Verge covered Hololens and they mention [1] the FOV as a limitation. 1: https://youtu.be/4p0BDw4VHNo?t=…

120x120°? That would be wider than VR headsets!

Unfortunately Hololens FOV is more like 30×20°. Other AR players are mostly in the same ballpark at the moment. The good thing is that this gives very high pixel density. The other thing is that you don't see the edges unless the 3D render is cut off, so it may not feel as tunnelled as in VR.

Re: Magic Leap’s technology may be years away from completion

#129

Having used Microsoft HoloLens for more than a month. Microsoft is doing a disservice to a great product by dropping the ball on HoloLens compatible games & software. It has potential to greatly transform gaming. It ought to start dropping the price and releasing more titles.

I have also used HoloLens, and Microsoft is not targeting gamers right now. They want engineers etc, corporations and universities with deep pockets. IMO the FoV is too narrow for the consumer market/gamers at this time. It is perfect for what they are aiming at right now though.

Microsoft is surely targeting gamers, they showed Robo Raid during the presentation, including even an unreleased version of Minecraft. Robo Raid & Fragments are way more polished and utilize significantly more capabilities of HoloLens compared to any other app.

Re: Magic Leap’s technology may be years away from completion

#130

It's not surprising because they are not basing it on any traditional widely manufactured components. It would be as if you promise to ship flat panel displays before LCD production lines have even been created and LCD only existed in the labs. So, either it's a scam, or, they legitimately plan to create a new industry which requires multiple years capital investment to get production off the ground.

But you could build a $30K prototype and show it to investors, saying that the cost would go down when mass production ramps up.
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