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U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

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Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#121

Post by visarga »

aggie wrote: post #88
nicksergeant wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They see through it. They just know they have no other option. Educators raise rates because they can, students pay the rates because they have to. It's the same problem we have in healthcare. Until employers start scrutinizing education in terms other than "No degree? No thanks.", then we will continue to have this problem, in my opinion.

Many students pay way more than they have to. I graduated from a top-10 public school (in-state) after transferring from community college and my total bill was about $35k. That's not nothing, but also not a ball-and-chain six-figure mark that some people accrue. There are better options than a lot of people have taken. To me the solution has to involve better financial and career counseling for high school graduates…

Natural selection at work. Some make the wrong choice to take too much debt.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#122

Post by acchow »

skwosh wrote: post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

You really don't need to pay tuition to gain a rich education in art and humanities and sciences if you want one. There are resources aplenty - buy a book!

I'd even go so far as to say the majority of college grads learned almost nothing during college, and the few who did would, after a few years of maturity, pick up a book of their own free will and enrich themselves.

I think the costs of university (huge amounts of debt and enormous human and physical resources put into holding lectures in giant buildings that need to be maintained and heated, the social divide created between those who got to hang out among the privileged for 4 years and those who couldn't) generally outweighs the hypothetical benefits you mention that some people might gain during college. Except perhaps for a few fields (like medicine, or dramatical arts, or music) where you can't just pick up a textbook and learn it all.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#123

Post by vacri »

School-Cotton wrote: post #51
chime wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm curious why we treat student loan debt as being special. Because you can no longer declare bankruptcy to erase student debt. > If your degree of choice is unlikely to yield the kind of return that will pay for it, then you should be required to save up for it, rather than getting a loan, just like there are qualifications for other loans, like auto or mortgages which look at both the value of the asset vs its s…

It's true only the rich could send their kids to art school, but there are lots of things only the rich can do. What makes you define art school in particular as something we should pay for everyone to do, rather than a luxury? Keep in mind that resources are limited -- for a given level of taxation, everything the State spends money on means either cutting something else or increasing the debt (thereby making debt s…

Anglo societies value art much more than they're willing to fork over cash for. Remove all art and tools, and life would be bleak (no movies, no music, etc), but we're sort of blind to that fact.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#124

Post by rhizome »

skwosh wrote: post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

"true" art is antithetical to capitalism

Absolutely not, especially now when the mechanisms of compensation have been democratized so well. Beyond that, Andy Warhol (et al) would be amused to learn that real art and capitalism were conceptual enemies. NB: I'm assuming you're using "antithetical" to mean that their successes are inversely proportional.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#125

Post by laretluval »

skwosh wrote: post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

> These fields don't usually/directly translate into a financial success, but they broaden our perspective and deepen our experience. And in doing so provide the tools and language to more effectively analyse and engage with human culture.

What concrete evidence leads you to think this is true?

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#126

Post by skwosh »

laretluval wrote: post #125
skwosh wrote: post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

> These fields don't usually/directly translate into a financial success, but they broaden our perspective and deepen our experience. And in doing so provide the tools and language to more effectively analyse and engage with human culture. What concrete evidence leads you to think this is true?

Emphasis on "usually"...

As far as evidence goes, more experiential - I've studied visual and sonic arts at a few different universities/colleges (in Australia). Generally, not many found financial success in their chosen field.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#127

Post by [deleted] »

skwosh wrote: post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#128

Post by jonah »

“He who works with his hands is a laborer.

He who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman.

He who works with his hands and his head and his heart is an artist.”

— American trial lawyer, Louis Nizer [1]

[1] https://lawlessstruggle.wordpress.com/2014/11/13/a-laborer-a...

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#129

Post by taurath »

GarrisonPrime wrote: post #29
taurath wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other countries don't have this problem. There is no debate to be had - the US can't control costs

Agreed. That's the same core problem with the US health care system as well. Yet in both cases, education and health care, control of costs is pretty much not discussed at all. The only narrative we seem to hear is along the lines of "find more money to pay for it".

Everything is a business in the US - which means middlemen everywhere between services and the people consuming them. The fact that costs are hidden in both places to the end user is a huge problem, and the government solution is literally to throw more money into the system instead of controlling costs through evil regulation. You just can't have it both ways - either you subsidize and regulate cost or you remove the middlemen and make the entity compete on the basis of cost. The problem with both health care and education is that the goods aren't elastic - they're required in most cases. This, they don't even compete on cost basis but instead quality, which drives prices ever higher.

Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt

#130

Post by nightski »

skwosh wrote: post #117

There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…

I feel like the value of adversity is lost sometimes on HN. We should be especially familiar with it. Earning a high level of income makes life extraordinarily comfortable, to the point where it is easy to become complacent and stop trying to really contribute to society in a meaningful way.

Some times a struggle is not a bad thing. Not to the point where one should be homeless or starving of course, but having everything handed to you (even if you have worked hard in the past) doesn't always result in the best of outcomes.

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