Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners • Hacker News Board

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#121

Post by fijal » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 3:52 PM UTC

vivekd wrote: post #118

awjr wrote: post #22

The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands appears to take a holistic approach to people, trying to help people get their lives back on track. Yes some people do need locking up, but there seems to be a recognition that locking up an addict for theft doesn't solve the long-term issue. Teaching them to man…

I used to think this way before I started practicing Criminal law. But after interacting with criminals, I'm starting to realize that these are not just otherwise innocent and good people who fell onto hard times or had trouble with an addiction. There are genuinely bad people out there, who just want to get what they want and are perfectly willing to hurt others to get it. It seems to me that, absent a desire to cha…

Sounds like a description of many politicians. Or businesman. What is needed is a system that, game theoretically, shows those people that you can be a complete asshole as long as you are within certain rules of the law. Then you don't get locked up and that's the deal.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#122

Post by Thriptic » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 3:54 PM UTC

adwn wrote: post #87

charlesdm wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is, I'm not saying it's not. But the other person is dead and gone forever? Imagine if someone killed your wife/child/brother/mother/etc. Does that seem like a correct punishment? I'm not talking about accidents (e.g. a car crash), but premeditated murder? I personally think the length of that punishment is not in line with the crime. But hey, I'm getting downvoted to hell, so I guess most people think it is.

> I personally think the length of that punishment is not in line with the crime. But hey, I'm getting downvoted to hell, so I guess most people think it is. You're getting downvoted because you treat imprisonment as vengeance, as paying back a debt that is owed to the victim's family. The more reasonable approach is to use imprisonment as a tool which prevents future crimes by the perpetrator and other potential cri…

I agree that if we can fix the underlying problems causing crime using rehabilitation then we should. There is no question that we have a problem with repeat offender criminals in places like the United States where prison is solely punishment. With that being said, I think it's important both from a moral standpoint (the state exists to protect individuals and their freedoms in my opinion) and also a practical law and order standpoint that victims feel the state has made them whole after a crime is perpetrated against them. Otherwise you increase the probability of extra judicial retaliations.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#123

Post by vivekd » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 3:54 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #120

vivekd wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think this way before I started practicing Criminal law. But after interacting with criminals, I'm starting to realize that these are not just otherwise innocent and good people who fell onto hard times or had trouble with an addiction. There are genuinely bad people out there, who just want to get what they want and are perfectly willing to hurt others to get it. It seems to me that, absent a desire to cha…

What makes you think there is a correlation between being prone to addiction and being a genuinely bad person?

Well, there are a lot of people who try drugs, even very hard drugs, and can go on without getting hooked. But addicts tend to get hooked because of a desire to escape themselves. I can't put my finger on it exactly, or point to a scientific study unfortunately, but addicts that I have met have been very self-centered and unpleasant people.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#124

Post by CreRecombinase » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 3:55 PM UTC

vivekd wrote: post #118

awjr wrote: post #22

The counter argument as to why there seem to be a lack of prisoners is under-resourcing the police. However the whole judicial system within the Netherlands appears to take a holistic approach to people, trying to help people get their lives back on track. Yes some people do need locking up, but there seems to be a recognition that locking up an addict for theft doesn't solve the long-term issue. Teaching them to man…

I used to think this way before I started practicing Criminal law. But after interacting with criminals, I'm starting to realize that these are not just otherwise innocent and good people who fell onto hard times or had trouble with an addiction. There are genuinely bad people out there, who just want to get what they want and are perfectly willing to hurt others to get it. It seems to me that, absent a desire to cha…

If that's true, then there are lots of genuinely bad people wandering the streets of the Netherlands. If that's true then either 1) they're doing terrible things all the time and the state just isn't doing anything about it (this doesn't seem to be the case), or 2) these "bad" people, bad as they may be, aren't causing much trouble by being amongst the general public.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#125

Post by john_reel » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 4:00 PM UTC

waterflame wrote: post #21

Apparently the Dutch are not as smart as the Americans. It's simple: 1- Legalize Guns so people can shoot each other over anything 2- Privatize Prisons so that greedy CEOs can take over the "business" 3- Create laws that can criminalize you for any stupid thing you do, procedures that make everyone frustrated, and an economy that keeps you bankrupt most of the time

Are you the waterflame that wrote the music for Geometry Dash?

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#126

Post by wnevets » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 4:01 PM UTC

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #111

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main thing is that there's a difference in perspective. In e.g. the US legal system, prison time is punishment, a form of vengeance, of paying your debt to society. (and nowadays, a means to get a large slave labor force). In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour.

> In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour. As a Dutch guy, I agree with this in general. However, what the system does not take into account is that some people are just broken beyond any hope of ever being fixed. For example, there was a news story a while back about some…

> It was the 163rd time he got arrested.

are you suggesting he should be locked up for a very long time for committing a lot of petty crimes?

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#127

Post by tynpeddler » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

skoczymroczny wrote: post #96

LeonM wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you need to legalize guns, it's to protect yourself from other people with guns! The only solution to the shootings in the US is to equip more people with guns, you know, for "protection".

Or to have a chance against a guy armed with a knife.

Or for a small person to have a chance against a big person. Or an old person to have a chance against a young person. Or for one person to have a chance against lots of people.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#128

Post by js2 » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

vivekd wrote: post #123

Dylan16807 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you think there is a correlation between being prone to addiction and being a genuinely bad person?

Well, there are a lot of people who try drugs, even very hard drugs, and can go on without getting hooked. But addicts tend to get hooked because of a desire to escape themselves. I can't put my finger on it exactly, or point to a scientific study unfortunately, but addicts that I have met have been very self-centered and unpleasant people.

Beware confirmation-bias?

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#129

Post by lisivka » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 4:02 PM UTC

cooper12 wrote: post #112

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In NL and Finland and the like, prison is more like forced rehabilitation - it recognises that committing crimes have a reason, and by solving the reason you solve the criminal behaviour. As a Dutch guy, I agree with this in general. However, what the system does not take into account is that some people are just broken beyond any hope of ever being fixed. For example, there was a news story a while back about some…

Help him find a job so he shouldn't have to steal to make ends meet. If it's because of some compulsion, provide counseling.

AFAIK, it does not helps. He will work for few days, maybe months, then will steal something. I read quite few anecdotes about such people from USSR. After USSR was broke, they were able to leave country and land in USA, Germany, Israel, etc., but their mental barrier to not steal was broken in USSR, so even when they got a job with 1000x salary, they are still steal something, get cough, fired or jailed, and then returned back to Russia.

Re: Dutch prison crisis: A shortage of prisoners

#130

Post by humbleMouse » Thu, Nov 10, 2016, 4:10 PM UTC

Anecdotally, I have been in jail in the netherlands before, and it's honestly not that bad of a place to be. Delicious food, thick mattresses, private cells. Also, all the surfaces are painted pink/yellow/white because those colors have been shown to calm people who are locked up.