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In Greece, Property Is Debt

nytimes.com

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Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#121

Post by charlesdm »

return0 wrote: post #119
flexie wrote: post #74

Let's get facts straight: The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M. Property taxes are hardly killing the Greek economy and especially not for the poor or the middle class. On the contrary, Greeks are paying very little. The problem is that Greeks used to have much more property than for example Northern Europeans. For comparison, in Denmark…

You're not wrong. Greece experienced a property bubble that is bursting painfully slowly. Homeownership is high in greece; it's part of the culture and successive governments protected it despite its heavy cost as a populist measure (e.g. by instituting laws that disallowed foreclosures). The bubble has not yet burst completely, that's why rent prices are very cheap.

Is it worth moving to Greece at this point if you have sufficient (ways of generating) capital to sustain your lifestyle? Or would that be a fools errand given the state of the economy?

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#122

Post by DanielBMarkham »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #67
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just so I'm clear, you are claiming that the finance ministers are purposely rigging things so that Greece will fail -- that all those loans and such were part of a plan to make an example out of them. First I've heard of this, but I haven't been following it. It sounds quite far-fetched though. I must be missing something.

That is the generally accepted view of the Greek crisis in much of Europe - The Euro hid huge debts in the same way securitised debt did in US. People would lend (via bonds) to risky countries (Greece and Spain) at the same EuroBond rate they lent to less risky countries (Germany, and well just Germany). And Greece took this and spent - at first on good infrastructure but slowly on low performing roads to nowhere and…

Total outsider and novice here, but from what you're describing, it seems that Greece has to leave the Euro and default on its debts. If people are electing leaders who have no control over finances, there's no democracy at work. Horrible thing to have happen in the birthplace of democracy.

The EU was sort of a beta version of a United Europe. They weren't as luck as the U.S., where a highly educated but small group of people tried to come up with the simplest thing they could that wouldn't fail. Instead it looks like quite a bit of architecture astronaut syndrome going on. If I'm right, and I'm just a passerby, the sooner they start down the road to refactoring the better it will be for everybody.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#123

Post by kkapelon »

imaginenore wrote: post #93
andmarios wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to factor in that we have an extremely high unemployment rate (23.5%) and after the austerity measures the basic wage is about 550 euro/month. Many, if not most, companies took advantage of this basic wage change and forced it upon their employees or replaced them with new ones (which can't ask for more). Also another big part of the workforce is on flexible-hours, which means they may go as low as 120 euro…

So why not accept the inheritance and sell the house?

Because nobody would buy it with the current state of economy. And even if somebody did buy it then you would have no place to live.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#124

Post by imarg »

flexie wrote: post #74

Let's get facts straight: The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M. Property taxes are hardly killing the Greek economy and especially not for the poor or the middle class. On the contrary, Greeks are paying very little. The problem is that Greeks used to have much more property than for example Northern Europeans. For comparison, in Denmark…

In Greece, when most people refer to property taxes they mean a tax called ΕΝΦΙΑ in greek (another user already mentioned it) which is a different tax than the one you mention.

ΕΝΦΙΑ is not restricted by property value (but is defined by it), meaning that even low valued properties have to pay (for houses it ranges from 2,50-16,25 €/sqm) and is a tax that was introduced at first as a "temporary" measure around 2011 or 2012 I think.

The tax you mention above is a different tax that is indeed 0% for property up to €200K. Keep in mind the €200K limit is not per property but for all your properties combined.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#125

Post by tome »

dan1234 wrote: post #115
dozzie wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wikipedia disagrees on "has no property tax", and it's hard to tell anything about "has almost no property tax". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax#United_Kingdom

The UK also has a Stamp Duty tax when property is purchased. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamp_duty_in_the_United_Kingd...

Stamp duty is a one-off tax in the single digits (or exceptionally, in the very low double digits). This is a 2% tax per year!

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#126

Post by kkapelon »

flexie wrote: post #74

Let's get facts straight: The state property tax in Greece is 0% for property up to €200K. Then 0.2 to 1% from €200K to €5M. Then 2% above €2M. Property taxes are hardly killing the Greek economy and especially not for the poor or the middle class. On the contrary, Greeks are paying very little. The problem is that Greeks used to have much more property than for example Northern Europeans. For comparison, in Denmark…

Numbers don't really say anything if you don't explain who decides them.

Here are two scenarios for you

1)I live in Greece and get 400 Euros a month and barely break even. I live in a house (inherited by my parents) that would fetch probably 90.000 in the market. Government says that it really costs 300.000 euros. I get taxed for it even though I cannot really afford it.

2)I am unemployed and live with my parents. They have a pension of 600 euros a month. My parents die. I inherit their house. The house was built in the 60's and is on an expensive island. Government says that the house values 500.000 and I get taxed even though I have no money at all on my own.

Basically the Greek government is unable to tax you directly (i.e. on the money you really make) and instead tries to guess your income by looking at the house. There are several cases however where your current house says nothing about how much money you actually make.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#127

Post by kkapelon »

charlesdm wrote: post #114
cgio wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's get facts straight. The state property tax in Greece is calculated on a nominal value far removed from market value. This means that a 300K nominal value property cannot sell today for 150K (I know, I have tried.) In practice, as the article mentions property value approaches zero as the market is incredibly shallow. Recalculate on the basis of that and then make the comparison.

Sounds like a bargain. Why shouldn't I pick up a property in Athens, right now? Are you talking about prime property locations in Athens?

Yes if you have the money now it is a good time to buy houses in Greece if you think that at some point the country will recover

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#128

Post by tzmudzin »

krona wrote: post #63
cloudjacker wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where have you been for the whole decade There is no self determination possible for Greece

Why the downvotes? "Elections change nothing. There are rules." -- Wolfgang Schäuble (in reference to the election of a Greek government in 2015)

Do you suggest the new government should be allowed to disrespect the obligations and commitments of the previous one, just because it's newly elected?

[Well, in a way, they are free to do so -- at the risk of losing every bit of credibility as a debtor... What Schäuble pointed out is: if you want more money, respect your obligations]

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#129

Post by kkapelon »

esbranson wrote: post #106

On the subject of "law courts", I wanted to ask: Are Greeks able to even (practically) read the codified laws and regulations of their country online? I ask because this is still pretty difficult in America, as most state and local law publishers do not publish them as (free) ebooks and make it hard to use their websites for anything but a reference. (I.e., it is difficult to read the law through and through online,…

No they are not able.

Lawyers are the ones who have all the power on this aspect.

Re: In Greece, Property Is Debt

#130

Post by nopakos »

charlesdm wrote: post #121
return0 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not wrong. Greece experienced a property bubble that is bursting painfully slowly. Homeownership is high in greece; it's part of the culture and successive governments protected it despite its heavy cost as a populist measure (e.g. by instituting laws that disallowed foreclosures). The bubble has not yet burst completely, that's why rent prices are very cheap.

Is it worth moving to Greece at this point if you have sufficient (ways of generating) capital to sustain your lifestyle? Or would that be a fools errand given the state of the economy?

A lot of people are thinking to move out because of the steps backwards in all fronts such as law enforcement, health and social care quality, education quality etc. Everyday life gets worse for everybody more or less. Economy does not collapse without collateral damage.
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