Barack Obama on A.I., Autonomous Cars, and the Future of Humanity • Hacker News Board

Re: Barack Obama on A.I., Autonomous Cars, and the Future of Humanity

#121

Post by imtringued » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 9:40 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #76

ronald_raygun wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would take a look at this argument done by Obama's main economist. He basically argues that UBI isn't actually that good because it doesn't shrink the gap as much as current systems (progressive taxes and the like). Plus it is a good read anyways because it is a much longer detailed analysis. https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/page/files/20...

This seems to make the mistake, I believe, of focusing on "inequality" as a problem. Inequality is not a problem. Poverty is. If everyone has everything they need and most things they want, but a few super rich people own entire planets, I fail to see how that's not a utopian future.

I would also argue that inheriting large wealth is not a problem. At some point the money had to be earned. If the inheritors do not use it wisely it will be gone within a few generations.

Imagine a farmer working his entire life on his farm. Now that he is reaching the end of his lifespan he wants his children to benefit from his work. He built the house and everything himself.

Why should the government take a chunk out of that? One might argue that the children do not work and therefore this "unearned" income is unfair because it's not possible to choose whether you are born into a wealthy family.

However it is both earned by the work of the father and already taxed by the government through his income.

By the time the father dies the children are likely already 40 to 50 years old but they benefited from his little wealth while he was still alive. The inheritance tax does not affect this. It only discourages using the inheritance efficiently over multiple generations.

Re: Barack Obama on A.I., Autonomous Cars, and the Future of Humanity

#122

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 9:44 AM UTC

mtgx wrote: post #118

eric_h wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm more and more convinced that a UBI is the only way to deal with this problem, so the unemployed have a buffer to retrain to a new skillset. Of course, replacing the current social safety net (food stamps, et. al.) with a UBI would likely result in the trimming of government bureaucratic jobs. Everything's a trade off.

"Choosing" (even if you have a choice at that point) UBI when only 10% of the population is employed anymore is easy . The question is when do you start implementing UBI? When only 80% of the population have jobs anymore? 60%? 40%? Because when you do implement it, the money that goes to the unemployed people is going to have to come from those that still make money. And they will probably be pretty pissed off about…

[deleted]

Re: Barack Obama on A.I., Autonomous Cars, and the Future of Humanity

#123

Post by brokenmasonjars » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 10:08 AM UTC

jmickey wrote: post #116

brokenmasonjars wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often feel what will replace jobs is people just going to school and earning a PhD or two or three. It'll certainly destroy their idle time of unemployment and make them and everyone else - the collective a whole lot smarter. Perhaps subspecialties emerge with dual-PhDs. I often hear that not everyone is capable of getting a PhD, but then again if we take the same energy and dedication of a career and push it over…

OK, but is there a demand for so many PhDs? Having a PhD doesn't really guarantee a good income now. It will be worse once everyone has one. This makes sense, if there is some sort of government sponsorship or grants, but providing these to all people would mean drastically higher taxes, and companies are opposed to those.

It's not about the demand so much in my view. Post graduation, people move onto research. The site Innocentive comes to mind sort of in regards to developing a form of compensation. Rewards for discovery. Nature had a partnership with that company for a bit but I believe they went separate ways.

I think the funding issue can be figured out without higher taxes or at the very least without absurdly higher taxes. Perhaps one idea would be to train people to invest through grades 9-12, have some sort of basic minimum income which isn't rich but isn't below poverty either; encourage people to invest with those funds and use profits to pay for college etc. I also sort of align with Jaron Lanier's concept of paying people for their data usage; but built onto that maybe so that it includes both government and private companies usage of that data; individuals don't see those funds until 18, from which they are encourage to go to school. As those funds are held they are invested like social security maybe? None of these ideas are really all that worked out just yet, just responding to you is all.

Re: Barack Obama on A.I., Autonomous Cars, and the Future of Humanity

#124

Post by brokenmasonjars » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 10:09 AM UTC

imtringued wrote: post #117

brokenmasonjars wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often feel what will replace jobs is people just going to school and earning a PhD or two or three. It'll certainly destroy their idle time of unemployment and make them and everyone else - the collective a whole lot smarter. Perhaps subspecialties emerge with dual-PhDs. I often hear that not everyone is capable of getting a PhD, but then again if we take the same energy and dedication of a career and push it over…

Not every job needs a PhD and the purpose of university isn't to prepare you to get a high paying job.

It's not about high paying jobs. It's about just occupying people's time, giving them something to do. Perhaps high pay; or at least a pay of some form can come from patents/copyrights developed with such knowledge however.

Re: Barack Obama on A.I., Autonomous Cars, and the Future of Humanity

#125

Post by macns » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 10:13 AM UTC

V-2 wrote: post #115

> JOI ITO: This may upset some of my students at MIT, but one of my concerns is that it’s been a predominately male gang of kids, mostly white, who are building the core computer science around AI, and they’re more comfortable talking to computers than to human beings. A lot of them feel that if they could just make that science-fiction, generalized AI, we wouldn’t have to worry about all the messy stuff like politic…

They were both[Obama, Ito] focusing on AI's social effects and to how societal values can be built into AI.

So Ito's concern was probably that a group of people of similar characteristics(i.e white male geeks) is not diverse enough to address the world's social problems, especially when this group of people is not social enough; they're more comfortable talking to computers than to human beings.

This fits with what he says in the end Because the question is, how do we build societal values into AI? - he's more concerned about the builders themselves.

Re: Barack Obama on A.I., Autonomous Cars, and the Future of Humanity

#126

Post by _andromeda_ » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 10:14 AM UTC

benchaney wrote: post #77

mc32 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We could have had Al Gore, but for Floridians, I mean the guy created the information superhighway --that's up there with the Tim Berners-Lee kind of stratum. On the other hand, had he won, Obama would not have become president because we would not have had to "react" to the Bush years.

"We could have had Al Gore, but for Floridians, I mean the guy created the information superhighway --that's up there with the Tim Berners-Lee kind of stratum." Please tell me this is a joke.

I too hope that this is a joke, '...created the information superhighway'.

I blame the education system for this kind of thinking. It is so heavily influenced by big government to the point that many people have come to believe that demagogues actually have a role in the advancement of civilization. These folks (demagogues) really should get real jobs. They are mostly good at production of words instead of production of goods & services or like Hans-Herman Hoppe likes to say, "Government specializes in the production of 'bads'". I'd like to recommend his book - Democracy, The god that failed.

Re: Barack Obama on A.I., Autonomous Cars, and the Future of Humanity

#127

Post by V-2 » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 10:20 AM UTC

macns wrote: post #125

V-2 wrote: post #115

> JOI ITO: This may upset some of my students at MIT, but one of my concerns is that it’s been a predominately male gang of kids, mostly white, who are building the core computer science around AI, and they’re more comfortable talking to computers than to human beings. A lot of them feel that if they could just make that science-fiction, generalized AI, we wouldn’t have to worry about all the messy stuff like politic…

They were both[Obama, Ito] focusing on AI's social effects and to how societal values can be built into AI. So Ito's concern was probably that a group of people of similar characteristics(i.e white male geeks) is not diverse enough to address the world's social problems, especially when this group of people is not social enough; they're more comfortable talking to computers than to human beings . This fits with what…

I do understand that as far as the social aspect goes, still I think that a white computer geek has much more in common with an Asian or black computer geek than with - say - an average white truck driver, and obviously the same applies to the other geeks as well. Basically once we control for the cultural aspect (which is correlated with ethnicity, but we controlled this out already), I don't think ethnicity by itself should matter much

Re: Barack Obama on A.I., Autonomous Cars, and the Future of Humanity

#128

Post by ethbro » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 10:28 AM UTC

_andromeda_ wrote: post #126

benchaney wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We could have had Al Gore, but for Floridians, I mean the guy created the information superhighway --that's up there with the Tim Berners-Lee kind of stratum." Please tell me this is a joke.

I too hope that this is a joke, '...created the information superhighway'. I blame the education system for this kind of thinking. It is so heavily influenced by big government to the point that many people have come to believe that demagogues actually have a role in the advancement of civilization. These folks (demagogues) really should get real jobs. They are mostly good at production of words instead of production…

See below and the wiki article for context, but I wouldn't be so quick to downplay the critical role funding takes.

Or, in Gore's own words, "That's how it has worked in America. Government has supplied the initial flicker -- and individuals and companies have provided the creativity and innovation that kindled that spark into a blaze of progress and productivity that's the envy of the world."

Re: Barack Obama on A.I., Autonomous Cars, and the Future of Humanity

#129

Post by throw2016 » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 10:32 AM UTC

I think their discussion on AI and implications was insightful. Their perspective is much wider, multifaceted and reflects a deeper and more nuanced perspective of technological and socio-political issues.

I think HN is best when its money or pure tech and tends to be dismissive or diminish the other stuff and you are left with a sterile unidimensional discussion.

Its like the gold rush, they can generate the wealth but the harder questions around politics, economics, social structures and humanity will have to be done in more 'distant' surroundings less touched by the frenzy of greed and profit.

Re: Barack Obama on A.I., Autonomous Cars, and the Future of Humanity

#130

Post by petre » Thu, Oct 13, 2016, 10:49 AM UTC

golergka wrote: post #14

cjbprime wrote: post #5

> OBAMA: The way I’ve been thinking about the regulatory structure as AI emerges is that, early in a technology, a thousand flowers should bloom. I gotta say, I thought he'd be more familiar with that metaphor. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign

Sounds like a perfect use for it. I'm understanding his use of it as that the thousand flowers should only bloom in the beginning, and later the field should be much tighter regulated. When you replace people's lives with different AIs, it becomes much less tragic, thankfully.

Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.

-- Ronald Reagan