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There's no easy way to say this

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Re: There's no easy way to say this

#121

Post by tropo »

untog wrote: post #80
r00fus wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, KSP's a hell of a resume entry. It's like asking someone why they might join the Peace Corps.

No. That viewpoint is utterly toxic to anyone who wants to work as a game dev. The Peace Corps is not making a ton of money off your back.

Everybody and their dog wants to work as a game dev. Nearly every program to get kids interested in programming involves games. Nearly everybody who gets into programming does so because they like games and think that this makes game development a fine career choice.

By supply and demand, you should expect a price of roughly zero. In other words, it's a hobby. Enjoy it, have fun, and do something else to pay your bills.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#122

Post by sandworm101 »

lazaroclapp wrote: post #120
sandworm101 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Still, worth saying, not an illegal salary. Much of that depends on specifics. Some of these devs traveled. Any work done while in other jurisdictions must have been done at local minimum wages. It doesn't take many days spent on the road promoting KSP in the US before you are legally entitled to more. There are prosecuted cases of offshore firms sending below-minimum workers into the US. It is a crime.

That's interesting to know. Guess my mental model was "this is work that can be done anywhere on earth, for a Mexican company under Mexican laws, so where the employee is should not matter legally", but if the location of the employee had anything to do with the work they were asked to perform... e.g. go to this event and promote our game, then it should indeed be illegal.

There are a few jurisdictions that take it to another level. Some governments will sue on behalf of the aggrieved employee. There it is a government taking action to recoup funds and any assigned penalties, not an employee. Third parties (is Valve/steam) can also be sued if they hold funds/property.

(From British Columbia, a typical such jurisdiction.)

"If a third party is or will be indebted to a person who is required to pay money under a determination, the Branch may demand that the third party pay all or part of their indebtedness directly to the Branch."

"The Branch may seize personal or business assets of a person required to pay under a determination, settlement agreement or order to satisfy the amount owing and the costs of the seizure. The Branch may direct the Court Bailiff to seize assets to recover the amount owing. "

http://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/employment-business/employ...

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#123

Post by tropo »

whack wrote: post #108
Zyst wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aye, copy pasting a comment I posted below: I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever. And I do know people from all walks of life. As to what they earn, again, I live in Mexico, I am employed by a Mexican company, and work for Mexican clients. I make their yearly salary in 15 days or so. It really is disgusting that they would treat employees this way, specially when they were such a…

I'm probably missing some back story here. Why did the developers agree to work for such low salaries? If they accepted the job knowing how much they will be paid, why are they upset about it now?

because games

It's no different from people choosing a career in early childhood education. Some people insist on doing what they love, ignoring ugly financial issues caused by supply and demand.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#124

Post by qwertyuiop924 »

qwertyuiop924 wrote: post #85
mxvzr wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More claims: https://www.reddit.com/r/KerbalSpaceProgram/comments/4hw5x7/...

That's not a good thing, but that's actually quite common in the games industry. It's bad, and the industry is apparently trying to kill it, but for now comes part and parcel with the job, in most places.

Ah, no. I missed some stuff. Yeah, that's a but worse than usual.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#125

Post by doozy »

whack wrote: post #108
Zyst wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aye, copy pasting a comment I posted below: I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever. And I do know people from all walks of life. As to what they earn, again, I live in Mexico, I am employed by a Mexican company, and work for Mexican clients. I make their yearly salary in 15 days or so. It really is disgusting that they would treat employees this way, specially when they were such a…

I'm probably missing some back story here. Why did the developers agree to work for such low salaries? If they accepted the job knowing how much they will be paid, why are they upset about it now?

Knowing Latin America: Lack of credentials and opportunities.

People take very stupid decisions when they are desperate.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#126

Post by whack »

CydeWeys wrote: post #118
whack wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm probably missing some back story here. Why did the developers agree to work for such low salaries? If they accepted the job knowing how much they will be paid, why are they upset about it now?

Because things change over time? There's a big difference between accepting a job at a low salary, and then staying on after awhile at that low salary with no raises, when you realize just how hard the working conditions are, and that you aren't saving any money while your friends are making steps in their financial lives and careers. This is basic at-will employment; you're free to decide you on longer want to do it…

I never said they should be OK with it indefinitely. If I was in their shoes, I would have just quit immediately. But I wouldn't accuse my employer of bad behavior either.

Many of the other comments seem to be accusing the employer of acting in bad faith, or of immoral behavior. If the employees knew exactly what they were getting into, these accusations seem baseless.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#127

Post by patrickthebold »

megablast wrote: post #111
Zyst wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever. And I do know people from all walks of life. As to what they earn, again, I live in Mexico, I am employed by a Mexican company, and work for Mexican clients. I make their yearly salary in 15 days or so. It really is disgusting that they would treat employees this way, specially when they were such a big success.

> I live in Mexico, I've never seen anyone in Mexico make minimum wage, ever. And I do know people from all walks of life. But what do you mean by that? Do they get paid less or more?

They mean more.

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#128

Post by CydeWeys »

whack wrote: post #126
CydeWeys wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because things change over time? There's a big difference between accepting a job at a low salary, and then staying on after awhile at that low salary with no raises, when you realize just how hard the working conditions are, and that you aren't saving any money while your friends are making steps in their financial lives and careers. This is basic at-will employment; you're free to decide you on longer want to do it…

I never said they should be OK with it indefinitely. If I was in their shoes, I would have just quit immediately. But I wouldn't accuse my employer of bad behavior either. Many of the other comments seem to be accusing the employer of acting in bad faith, or of immoral behavior. If the employees knew exactly what they were getting into, these accusations seem baseless.

It sounds like Squad was taking advantage of employees by forcing them to work very long hours. That's definitely bad behavior. Maybe you or I would quit immediately, but a lot of people don't. They still have a right to complain about it when they finally do get around to quitting. I just don't understand why you are going after the employees. What point does it serve? We know that burnout, being overworked, and being taken advantage of is a huge problem in this industry, so why go after the victims?

Re: There's no easy way to say this

#129

Post by pitay »

rdiddly wrote: post #110
sulam wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excuse me? For all intents and purposes $2400 a year is less than I spend on parking every year. This is not a "startup" salary, this is less than 1/10th the salary of your typical QA engineer IN MEXICO . I see a lot of posts in this thread that seem to be trying to whitewash the work hours and the pay as somehow reasonable. They're not, not even for the notoriously-bad-to-work-for game industry.

There's a difference between whitewashing and seeing the bright side. Having been on the dev team of this popular game is useful. Presumably even the $2,400/yr was useful, though obviously only as useful as $2,400/yr is. I'm not saying it's fair, I'm saying "it happened, and what now?" It's Success 101. When you go through something that sucks, by all means enumerate what sucked about it so you can watch out for thos…

So you're saying that it is bad for people to complain when they are shafted. That they should look on the bright side for whatever they were subjected to.

And you are saying that you want to hire people that will not complain when they are exploited. I'd not want to work for anyone like you, since you would think it is my fault that I was stupid enough to get screwed.

What this whole Squad developer thing tells me is there needs to be a way for exploited employees to retaliate legally, because nothing much seems to be happening at the moment.

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