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Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

nytimes.com

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Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#121

Post by sygma »

0xmohit wrote: post #36

Quoting from the link: Facebook said on Tuesday, after the order had been issued, that it had complied with Europe’s privacy rules and that it was willing to work with the German regulator to address its concerns. Two Indian students challenged Facebook on WhatsApp privacy policy changes [0]. The following is what WhatsApp counsel told [1]: Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision, we have not forced anybo…

> Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision

Yes, it is voluntary, but it would be socially alienating not to be on that service. Here's a relevant talk [0] by Moxie Marlinspike talking about that.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG0KrT6pBPk&feature=youtu.be...

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#122

Post by adrianN »

corndoge wrote: post #114
logn wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision Once a critical mass uses a messaging service, it's not a completely voluntary decision, especially when there is no open standard with interoperable competing apps.

This is false. Market dominance does not transform a proprietary product into a basic utility. What I mean is that simply because a proprietary product has a large mass of users does not mean the users have the right to demand that it be regulated like a public utility.

"Using the phone network is a voluntary decision, nobody is forced to own a phone."

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#123

Post by pmlnr »

microtonal wrote: post #9
smoyer wrote: post #7

Now things are going to get interesting! I completely understand the desire for privacy but I think it's unrealistic to expect that Facebook won't consolidate its data by user across all their applications. Facebook (and Google, etc.) are now in the same business as the credit reporting agencies ... You are their only product. My hope is that the increasing outrage will drive users to one of the secure messaging appl…

Now things are going to get interesting! I completely understand the desire for privacy but I thinkmit's unrealistic to expect that Facebook won't consolidate its data by user across all their applications. Facebook (and Google, etc.) are now in the same business as the credit reporting agencies ... You are their only product. The difference in this particular case is that Whatsapp made an explicit promise that they…

> The difference in this particular case is that Whatsapp made an explicit promise that they would not start sharing their data.

    They "trust me"
    Dumb fucks
    / https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mark_Zuckerberg /
They trusted a promise. Again. The only question is how many times can this be done.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#124

Post by patrickaljord »

rmc wrote: post #58
patrickaljord wrote: post #25

Facebook asked WhatsApp users to give consent before collecting data, which some did. Why should the government intervine between consenting adults agreeing on a contract willfully? Isn't this the definition of tyranny and why we oppose things such as the war on drugs?

> Why should the government intervine between consenting adults agreeing on a contract willfully? Isn't this the definition of tyranny and why we oppose things such as the war on drugs? The idea that contracts between adults are sacred is basically a libertarian philosophy. Many countries (incl Germany) often limit what contracts can do. You can also make a case that people did not "freely consent" to transferring da…

> Many countries (incl Germany) often limit what contracts can do.

Coming from Syria myself, I'm well aware that many countries do not respect people's freedom to contract freely. Doesn't mean that they are not tyrannies. Also, the Whatsapp TOS pretty much says that they can update their TOS whenever and however they want, so when you first try to use it, you should not expect any kind of control over your data, if you care about that, use an open source alternative. I will never understand people who consent to proprietary software TOS and then complain about these TOS changing in certain ways when this is what they are all about. I mean this has been Stallman arguments against proprietary software for like 40 years now. Want complete control? Use free/open source software. Don't care about that, use proprietary software such as Whatsapp. What makes less sense to me is using something such as Whatsapp and demand and expect what only free open source software can deliver.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#125

Post by jimmytidey »

corndoge wrote: post #114
logn wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision Once a critical mass uses a messaging service, it's not a completely voluntary decision, especially when there is no open standard with interoperable competing apps.

This is false. Market dominance does not transform a proprietary product into a basic utility. What I mean is that simply because a proprietary product has a large mass of users does not mean the users have the right to demand that it be regulated like a public utility.

Natural monopolies are very often regulated because of the negative side effects of not doing so.

Which is to say, market dominance has transformed products into utilities in the past.

You can argue that should not be the case, but, historically, it very much has been.

There's surely a balance to be struck between incentivising firms to innovate by allowing them to earn profits when they develop a good product and allowing a firms to lock-in economic rents forever.

How you strike that balance is a value judgement about the kind of society you want to live in.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#126

Post by DavidWanjiru »

ominous wrote: post #12
microtonal wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now things are going to get interesting! I completely understand the desire for privacy but I thinkmit's unrealistic to expect that Facebook won't consolidate its data by user across all their applications. Facebook (and Google, etc.) are now in the same business as the credit reporting agencies ... You are their only product. The difference in this particular case is that Whatsapp made an explicit promise that they…

Where does it say that Facebook will respect that blog post?

We could ask this question recursively ad infinitum. Because their intention to respect wherever it says they'll respect the blog post can be questioned too.

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#127

Post by woliveirajr »

kbart wrote: post #14

“It has to be their decision, whether they want to connect their account with Facebook,” Johannes Caspar, the Hamburg data protection commissioner, said in a statement. “Therefore, Facebook has to ask for their permission in advance. This has not happened.” That's a fair point. I don't use WhatsApp, so did it asked to accept new privacy policy, terms & conditions or smth? Anyway, I'm happy to see that institutions in…

Interesting when you confront this with those decisions of Brazilian courts of suspending /blocking WhatsApp during some days.

Because the response, from the court order, is always "Facebook and WhatsApp are separeted companies, you are asking Facebook (that has a office in Brazil) to answer for WhatsApp (that hasn't), Facebook doesn't have access to any meta-data from WhatsApp (including which user talked to another one)".

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#128

Post by wolfgke »

sygma wrote: post #121
0xmohit wrote: post #36

Quoting from the link: Facebook said on Tuesday, after the order had been issued, that it had complied with Europe’s privacy rules and that it was willing to work with the German regulator to address its concerns. Two Indian students challenged Facebook on WhatsApp privacy policy changes [0]. The following is what WhatsApp counsel told [1]: Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision, we have not forced anybo…

> Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision Yes, it is voluntary, but it would be socially alienating not to be on that service. Here's a relevant talk [0] by Moxie Marlinspike talking about that. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG0KrT6pBPk&feature=youtu.be...

> Yes, it is voluntary, but it would be socially alienating not to be on that service.

On the other hand: Do people who care about privacy very much really get along well with people who don't and force you in subtile ways to use such a messaging service? I rather think it's the completely different mindset of these two classes of people that is socially alienating and the message service is just a symptom (I believe I know what I'm talking about since I think I am one of these very privacy-caring people).

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#129

Post by woliveirajr »

0xmohit wrote: post #36

Quoting from the link: Facebook said on Tuesday, after the order had been issued, that it had complied with Europe’s privacy rules and that it was willing to work with the German regulator to address its concerns. Two Indian students challenged Facebook on WhatsApp privacy policy changes [0]. The following is what WhatsApp counsel told [1]: Using the messaging service is a voluntary decision, we have not forced anybo…

Interesting when you confront this with those decisions of Brazilian courts of suspending /blocking WhatsApp during some days. Because the response, from the court order, is always "Facebook and WhatsApp are separeted companies, you are asking Facebook (that has a office in Brazil) to answer for WhatsApp (that hasn't), Facebook doesn't have access to any meta-data from WhatsApp (including which user talked to another one)".

Re: Facebook Ordered to Stop Collecting Data on WhatsApp Users in Germany

#130

Post by FabHK »

Can everyone just please install Wire [1]:

* free,

* end-to-end encrypted

* text and voice chat

* with pictures and group chat and what have you,

* using the Signal/OpenWhisper protocol,

* with desktop and web clients,

* open source (GPLv3, and on github [2]),

* signup with phone number or email,

* based in Switzerland,

* what else can you ask for?

Signal itself of course is pretty good, secure (recommended by Ed Snowden, famously), but not quite as fully featured it seems to me.

[1] https://wire.com

[2] https://github.com/wireapp

EDIT: added license, web client

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