Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment • Hacker News Board

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#121

Post by rulegoon » Sun, Sep 11, 2016, 8:57 PM UTC

internaut wrote: post #117

rulegoon wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However something else is also a fact. That growth over the last 3 centuries in almost every area catapulted Europeans to incredible, almost seemingly impossible levels of economic success with respect to previous history. Have you looked deeper into what fueled this "incredible/impossible" growth you're so proud of? It was the disruption, colonization and then plunder of the resources of other societies around the…

Broadly your position appears to be that Africa is not necessarily backward but that if it is definitely backward then this is the consequence of Europeans conquering their lands centuries ago and since there are no European colonies anymore we Europeans have been manipulating them in the present day through corporations as proxies, thus retarding their (already slow because colonization) progress. Is that an accurat…

> Broadly your position appears to be that Africa is not necessarily backward but that if it is definitely backward then this is the consequence of Europeans conquering their lands centuries ago

Centuries ago? Most African states got independence just 50 years ago!! Get your timelines right. Broadly, my position is that there is nothing superior about Europeans or inferior and backward about Africans, which is the main thrust of your argument, is it not? That the problems and state of Africa today is simply caused by the backwardness and faults of its inhabitants, right?

My position is that you are trying very hard to rationalize what are simply feelings good old fashioned prejudice, coupled with a lot of ignorance. I cannot

> There must be a strong relationship between colonization and poverty. After all, they are taking your things.

If the colonizers are racist taskmasters who view their subjects as some sort of sub-human species, the effects of colonization are devastating. Not just economically, but socially and culturally. For example, where do you think the practice of militias chopping off victims hands came from? Do you think such barbaric practices existed before the arrival of the European colonizer?

> Nations or ethic groups that are conquered by aggressors take considerable time to recover, perhaps many generations.

If your aim is to be accurate, then ask precise questions. What is "considerable time"?! Who are the aggressors? How are they treating their subjects? What social and cultural structures did they find coming in, and what did they leave behind when going? Who did they hand power over to when they "left"? What resources did they plunder? Its very easy to be hand-wavy and prejudiced when thinking broad, general terms. So do your homework, get more specific and your ignorance, and hopefully prejudice will disappear.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#122

Post by internaut » Sun, Sep 11, 2016, 9:45 PM UTC

rulegoon wrote: post #121

internaut wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Broadly your position appears to be that Africa is not necessarily backward but that if it is definitely backward then this is the consequence of Europeans conquering their lands centuries ago and since there are no European colonies anymore we Europeans have been manipulating them in the present day through corporations as proxies, thus retarding their (already slow because colonization) progress. Is that an accurat…

> Broadly your position appears to be that Africa is not necessarily backward but that if it is definitely backward then this is the consequence of Europeans conquering their lands centuries ago Centuries ago? Most African states got independence just 50 years ago!! Get your timelines right. Broadly, my position is that there is nothing superior about Europeans or inferior and backward about Africans, which is the ma…

I shall answer specific questions but before I do that I want an answer on those I put to you.

> Broadly your position appears to be that Africa is not necessarily backward but that ...

> Is that an accurate summation?

> I repeat; is my summary accurate?

I was repeating in my words your arguments, and I need to know whether I have it right or we shall descend into the weeds.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#123

Post by rulegoon » Mon, Sep 12, 2016, 11:05 AM UTC

internaut wrote: post #122

rulegoon wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Broadly your position appears to be that Africa is not necessarily backward but that if it is definitely backward then this is the consequence of Europeans conquering their lands centuries ago Centuries ago? Most African states got independence just 50 years ago!! Get your timelines right. Broadly, my position is that there is nothing superior about Europeans or inferior and backward about Africans, which is the ma…

I shall answer specific questions but before I do that I want an answer on those I put to you. > Broadly your position appears to be that Africa is not necessarily backward but that ... > Is that an accurate summation? > I repeat; is my summary accurate? I was repeating in my words your arguments, and I need to know whether I have it right or we shall descend into the weeds.

I've already answered your questions, have you even read the response! Will be short and sweet this time:

> Is that an accurate summation?

No. For an accurate summation... see/read/note/understand/grok/comprendez my last response above.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#124

Post by bsbechtel » Mon, Sep 12, 2016, 11:10 AM UTC

witty_username wrote: post #82

wcummings wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The world is not a zero sum game This is only true as long as there is economic growth.

Any trade is non zero sum, infact it's beneficial for both people. If I trade one pepe meme for 1$, it's mutually beneficial and each person got something better.

Taxing people and redistributing the money (as BI or other) is not trade, however, and it is zero sum.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#125

Post by internaut » Mon, Sep 12, 2016, 8:30 PM UTC

rulegoon wrote: post #123

internaut wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I shall answer specific questions but before I do that I want an answer on those I put to you. > Broadly your position appears to be that Africa is not necessarily backward but that ... > Is that an accurate summation? > I repeat; is my summary accurate? I was repeating in my words your arguments, and I need to know whether I have it right or we shall descend into the weeds.

I've already answered your questions, have you even read the response! Will be short and sweet this time: > Is that an accurate summation? No. For an accurate summation... see/read/note/understand/grok/comprendez my last response above.

I have read your responses. I think I understand your anger because I held similar convictions about ten years ago.

The problem I am having with this argument is that you are not actually addressing the ideas directly. To me it is all impressionistic what I'm hearing.

Accusations of ignorance/bias, semi-philosophical, perhaps conspiratorial musings and emotive language describing past horrors and diabolical events, none of this actually addresses the central question directly.

The central question is why is African so impoverished?

I ask you to summarize precisely and as concisely as you can your hypothesis.

I understand that you want Africa to be a better place than it currently is and feel passionately about that. I also want it to be a better place but for us to communicate without descending into stereotypes or hyperbole about the right or left we have to talk from first principals.

Otherwise I am forced to make assumptions about your position. Presently I assume you believe that white men came to Africa, blitzed it, and then secretly are still controlling it after independence. This is not actually a mainstream position, although it is popular among many US and British students.

This means I assume you think there exists one and only one reason why Africa is so improvised. Namely, white invaders. That Africans were, and are still, slaves.

Fortunately you are able to provide the accurate explanation that you believe to be true. Then we could build on that foundation. Then neither of us will have to attack strawmen. Or we could just call each other names. It is your call.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#126

Post by whack » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 12:53 PM UTC

AJ007 wrote: post #83

whack wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have some axe to grind with GiveDirect. They've already run many Basic Income experiments in many parts of Africa, with great success. The fact that they are hitting some snags in a few counties, doesn't diminish them as an organization in any way.

Assuming that this really is an experiment, they are being asked to possibly be subjected to negative results. Researchers get to walk away when subjects of an experiment can carry the consequences of an experiment with them for the rest of their lives. It seems to me that it is a survival instinct to refuse new things you don't understand from untrusted sources. Damn right that I do. The fact that I have a Western e…

What's your opinion on double-blind randomized medical trials where half the people are given placebos, and the other half are given treatments that have not been fully proven to be safe & effective.

Re: Many Kenyans refusing basic income experiment

#127

Post by undersuit » Tue, Sep 13, 2016, 5:27 PM UTC

elementalest wrote: post #67

labster wrote: post #12

When I first read the headline, I saw "Many Keynesians refusing basic income experiment", which confused me because I thought Keynes fans would totally go for UBI. But yeah, free money looks a lot like colonialism if you squint. I can see people avoiding it. You get $500 a month now, and then 3 months later, they come asking for a "favor" in return, and it would be a shame if something happened to your kneecaps. This…

That is something I had never considered. If many people become dependent on UBI, they are entirely dependent on the state - to the point they can be taken advantage of if power is abused. UBI in some ways does take an element of freedom from people, granted it may provide other forms of freedom. What is to stop the government from changing the laws to require everyone only on UBI (no job) to perform some form of com…

Not that it's a real deterrent... but if you have a requirement for UBI... it's not UBI. Attacks at the universal component of BI must be stopped else it is nothing more than a variant of today's arbitrary and maligned welfare.

>What is to stop the government from changing the laws

The citizens. The hope is citizens can be more active in community efforts(like protesting government actions) when their continual employment(and employment usually hinders midday government protesting) is no longer a necessity for continued life.