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Wikileaks has really misled the public

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Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#121
post #101
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that we ask soldiers to kill people, we don't ask them to rape them. To ask, pay, and celebrate them for doing the former and then fastidiously insist that they only do it in a way that conforms to our hero fantasies is incongruent. That being said, it is naive to unleash violence and not expect it to spill over. So I guess in the case of war rape I would say that while it's not prissy to be outrage…

>To ask, pay, and celebrate them for doing the former and then fastidiously insist that they only do it in a way that conforms to our hero fantasies is incongruent. Well, it would be incongruent to do that, yes, but I don't ask them or pay them or celebrate them. I expect the soldiers in the video are just doing what a lot of people would do in the same situation. That might make their behavior in some sense "normal"…

I expect the soldiers in the video are just doing what a lot of people would do in the same situation.

They are reacting as they have been trained to react; war is hell, the army build in defense mechanisms like this to ensure soldiers can fight (emotional detachment, jock attitude), they also ingrain absolute discipline to try and avoid scenario's exactly like this.

EDIT: supporting evidence - read some military training manuals. They basically detail the attitude training attempts to instill in a soldier. shrug this is common to pretty much every standing army in the history of ever :) (emotional detachment especially)

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#122
post #54

I am not American; though I usually side with democratic countries as much as I can. However, if you made a really big mistake and went to war with a country which posed no credible threat to you (at least in hindsight when this shooting took place) I'd imagine people would err on the side of caution when shooting somebody's family and loved ones. At least in this part of the world, what is coming across is that your…

what gives America the moral right to talk about human rights when the Iraqi death toll exceeds well over one hundred thousand? Well, the counter argument is that by this logic nobody can talk about human rights. Until very recently in human history the Europeans brutally conquered half the world and effectively turned the "savage people" that were unlucky enough to survive the raping and the pillaging into slaves. L…

> Until very recently in human history the Europeans brutally conquered half the world and effectively turned the "savage people" that were unlucky enough to survive the raping and the pillaging into slaves

Yep, but it seems at least the Europeans have evolved from that point.

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't surprise me they found an RPG on the ground after the chopper reported there was one. I have it on good authority from people who were actually on the ground that soldiers regularly keep RPG's and AK-47's in the Humvees such that if they do kill an innocent civilian, they just place the AK-47 or RPG on or near the victim to make them look like an insurgent. I don't know if that's what happened in this part…

I hesitated before downvoting you; but I feel I have to because it's very easy (even with the edit) to make these claims online with little or no substance. I feel if this was readily admitted to yourself it would have been admitted to others too and, by now, made it to the mainstream news. Where it would have been a massive, massive story. I also feel all we have is your word and really that's not enough for such a…

You're right, and I hesitated before even posting it.

There's a difference in what some people are willing to say to a friend and what people are willing to say to a reporter. Honestly, it's surprising to me that more things like this incident and other like it haven't made it to the mainstream media. Ask any soldier that was on the ground (especially around 2007), and they'll tell you that, maybe, 10% of what is going on in Iraq is actually being reported. There's a bunch of stuff that goes on that you will never hear about.

From what I can tell, most people that were over there would rather leave most of it behind them. I haven't met anyone that's come back better for it, and very few of them are willing to go into any detail about the incidents unless it's with someone they're extremely comfortable with. When they do open up, it seems to come with an understanding that it won't be shared, and if it is, no names or specifics will be brought up.

Even after leaving Iraq, these guys can still face penalties if it's found that they were covering things up. I'm not sure what, if anything, they'd be charged with, but most of them are still within the Statutes of Limitations of the UCMJ for Court Marshal, and there are worse punishments beyond that that have no Statutes of Limitations.

I trust the stories that were told to me because they came from multiple people that weren't connected save for being in the military and having been stationed in Iraq at some point in time. If my word isn't enough for you (and I don't blame you if it isn't) then feel free to pass it off as another random person on the internet repeating a possible fabrication.

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#124

For anyone who watched the video, attempts to support the actions of the helicopter gunner seem to be on very shaky grounds indeed. The victims are mostly, or entirely, unarmed and attacking people trying to rescue the injured is an act of questionable legality. This looks like a war crime similar to those committed in Vietnam.

The US has a very bad history in 'judging its own' when it comes to war crimes, only under intense media pressure has there ever been any legal action against the perpetrators, and usually it was limited to the lower ranks.

And then there is the 'invade the Hague act':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pro...

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#125
post #54

I am not American; though I usually side with democratic countries as much as I can. However, if you made a really big mistake and went to war with a country which posed no credible threat to you (at least in hindsight when this shooting took place) I'd imagine people would err on the side of caution when shooting somebody's family and loved ones. At least in this part of the world, what is coming across is that your…

Killing ten Iraqis to save an American soldier is not justifiable, any which way you look at it. As messed up as it may sound to you, I'd rather my friends make it home. As far as I'm concerned, the blood is on the hands of the people who started and continued the war; not the ones who have to actually fight it.

The reason that 'D-Day' (Normandy invasion) was called a liberation was that the invading forces were willing to take on an entrenched enemy and were willing to suffer fairly massive losses in doing so, and the immediate improvement in conditions following it.

The reason why the rest of the world refuses to accept the situation in Iraq as a liberation and in stead perceives it as a cynical battle for control over resources is that:

  1) the invaders are not prepared to suffer losses on par
     with their 'enemies'

  2) more people have died under the 'liberators' than 
     would have died in many years of previous occupation

  3) the situation in Iraq is still viewed through the 
     terms of lives lost by the invaders instead of lives
     lost by those 'liberated'

  4) there would not be as much or more accent on 
     protecting Iraqs oil resources as there has been 
     on saving Iraqi lives
Whether or not people get killed by 'insurgents' (one mans insurgent is another mans freedom fighter), 'enemy combatants', 'friendlies' or whether they're collateral damage, it doesn't change anything in the fact that those deaths could have for the most part be avoided if the invaders were willing to take the losses themselves.

If you liberate someone you place yourself in a position of sacrifice, you're willing to go the distance in order to protect those you liberate. A hostage rescue team goes in knowing full well they're going to try to protect the lives of the hostages at all cost. A hostage team that would go in to protect their own lives at significant extra risk to the lives of the hostages would not get much recognition, even if they would save the occasional hostage.

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#126
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't a person helping a combatant get to cover be by definition a combatant (although perhaps just for the duration of the action)? Also, if we're talking about the Conventions, were these illegal combatants? (I haven't watched the video.)

> Wouldn't a person helping a combatant get to cover be by definition a combatant (although perhaps just for the duration of the action)? I think the key part is armed combatants in combat - you can't just open fire on any civilians who are helping an unarmed combatant after he's removed from combat. I'm not an expert though - I spent a bit of time reading on Geneva about a year ago, and just refreshed my memory toda…

I'm going to preface this comment by a brief statement on my background, because, as you will see, it's quite relevant to the discussion.

I personally campaigned against the US + allies invasion of Iraq. I even stood for election in Australia with that as part of my platform. I door-knocked with petitions to not invade - without much success. I also spent 9 years in the Royal Australian Air Force as an officer, and as such I have had to study the Geneva Conventions and the Laws of Armed Combat - officers need to know what is a legal order and what is not a legal order to give.

The thing is, if you are talking about combatants that aren't in uniform, the Geneva Conventions no longer apply - a uniform is the sine qua non of the treaty.

The idea is that combatants put on uniforms - yes, this makes them easier to identify, but the uniform makes it easy to discriminate combatants from non-combatants, thereby protecting non-combatants. When combatants choose to not wear a uniform, they are every bit as responsible for civilian casualties, as those that mistakenly fire upon civilians.

This engagement is a classic example - are the people in the van combatants aiding combatants? or are they good samaritan civilians aiding other innocent civilians? Or are they civilians aiding combatants, or of course, I guess it's possible that they were combatants aiding civilians. The point is that we don't know - even with hindsight we are unable to identify exactly who was who. Soldiers that think they have an RPG that might by lining them up certainly aren't going to be willing to give the people in question the benefit of the doubt. That is the fog of war.

You can complain about the US being in Iraq, but honestly, looking at the video, I don't find anything much that is shocking about the actions of the soldiers - they are perhaps a touch insouciant about the bloody mayhem that they unleash, but I suspect that a lot of that comes from the relief they are feeling at having neutralised what they perceived as a deadly threat. No, I really am not seeing a lot that was wrong in that video. What was wrong was the fact that the US was there in the first place...

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#127
No reason to invoke ROE or Geneva convention at all. "Brains are more important than process".

How on Earth can anyone feel that it's OK to take people's lives based on so little evidence? "Looks like two of the guys are carrying guns. Let's kill them all." We all know that this is the kind of thing happens in war, but that doesn't make it excusable. I can't interpret the actions of the soldiers in any other way than murder.

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If my friend went to Iraq, I'd rather him coming back in one piece too. Good thing that none of my friends went, your friends do not have to go either.

your friends do not have to go either wow...if you delete your post, i promise i'll delete my quoting you to remove the evidence of your ignorance.

Why is that ignorant? If you don't want to risk being ordered to fight in a war you don't believe in, then you don't join the military.

Re: Wikileaks has really misled the public

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wouldn't a person helping a combatant get to cover be by definition a combatant (although perhaps just for the duration of the action)? I think the key part is armed combatants in combat - you can't just open fire on any civilians who are helping an unarmed combatant after he's removed from combat. I'm not an expert though - I spent a bit of time reading on Geneva about a year ago, and just refreshed my memory toda…

I'm going to preface this comment by a brief statement on my background, because, as you will see, it's quite relevant to the discussion. I personally campaigned against the US + allies invasion of Iraq. I even stood for election in Australia with that as part of my platform. I door-knocked with petitions to not invade - without much success. I also spent 9 years in the Royal Australian Air Force as an officer, and a…

One minor quibble followed by more disucssion (please correct me if I'm wrong, poor eyesight kept me out of the military so I never had to learn this for real): legal combatants "put on uniforms", but the threshold for this is fairly low, a distinctive armband is sufficient.

As you note, the rules of the game drastically change when combatants decline to be "legal", although from what little I know the Geneva Conventions do apply, just not in a way an illegal combatant will find appealing.

They are deliberately set up to so that there are strong incentives to stay within them, to not be an illegal combatant ... e.g. as far as the Conventions are concerned (not talking about what our Uniform Code of Military Niceness (UCMJ) or your equivalent says), as I understand it they can be executed out of hand if captured on the battlefield (I assume some due process is required, but only to establish their status).

E.g. as I recall, when we captured around a dozen non-uniformed Nazi saboteurs who'd been landed by sub? in the NE of the US during WWII, they were tried on that basis and then executed.

Similarly, in the GWOT, we are not obligated to treat captured illegal combatants as POWs, and have the option to interrogate them (e.g. Gitmo), something you're not allowed to do to a POW.

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