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The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

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Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#121

Post by spangry »

rosser wrote: post #32
rubicon33 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just curious - Why would someone on SSRIs not notice a thing? Forgive my ignorance but... Aren't those anxiolytic? Does that somehow prevent ayahuasca from functioning?

Why would someone on SSRIs not notice a thing? In the case of ayahuasca, quite possibly because they're dead . You don't mix SSRIs and MAOIs unless you have a very good idea what you're doing, and even then probably not without a reasonably well-equipped clinic to hand. Serotonin Syndrome is not something to fuck around with.

Not that I'd advise anyone take the risk, but there are lower risks associated with mixing SSRIs and MAO-B inhibitors (like ayahuasca). It's the older class of anti-depressants which are both MAO-A and MAO-B inhibitors that you don't want to mix with SSRIs (and lots of other things too). MAO-A oxidises/metabolises seratonin, noradrenaline and dopamine, whereas MAO-B is mostly just dopamine. MAO-A inhibition also causes the 'cheese effect' (consumption of tyramine causing hypertensive crisis).

As an aside, it's a real pity that the side effects of MAO-A inhibition loom so large in people's imaginations. They're extremely effective anti-depressants and many of the risks can be easily mitigated, but GPs and even shrinks are now too afraid to prescribe them.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#122

Post by sn9 »

empath75 wrote: post #38
notliketherest wrote: post #35

All of this "self exploration, cosmos consciousness, soul enlightenment" justification for using these drugs sounds to me like the promises of profit in Tim Ferris' 4 hour work week: 1) take drugs 2) ??? 3) Enlightenment. You know that Mt Fuji analogy whereby a hiker hikes to the top of Mt Fuji for enlightenment, choosing his path on the way? Well it seems to me like this people are looking for a quick helicopter rid…

Drug experiences are still experiences and like any experience, you can learn something from them or waste them. At the absolute least, a psychedelic experience should teach you a lesson about the reliability of the senses and about how subjective our experience of reality can be, which is a valuable lesson to learn, IMO, and no matter how much you understand it intellectually, directly experiencing it is another mat…

It seems like the people profiled in the article failed to learn that completely. Instead they go on about plant spirits and vibrations and other things they hallucinated as if they were actually real. That the perception of truth and truth itself are the same thing.

You don't need drugs at all to learn how subjective our own perceptions of reality are. And the risks suggest that it would be unwise to do so.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#123

Post by ktRolster »

stcredzero wrote: post #33
ktRolster wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the people in the article discovered that, despite the miserable physical pain, afterwards all his childhood self-loathing and anger was gone.

Which meshes with my own confirmation bias: It's mostly about the way people feel about things. Such experiences often don't offer any kind of concrete insight on their own. Instead, they put the person in a frame of mind where they are more open to new ways of looking at things. (Personal experience: I've tried psychedelics myself.)

tbh it doesn't sound like you have a serious confirmation bias; it sounds like you are looking at the evidence trying to build your ideas on firm foundations, and are aware when the foundations aren't firm. That is a healthy cognitive outlook.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#124

Post by trappedintime »

thescribe wrote: post #100
trappedintime wrote: post #94

The experience you will have is tremendously dependent on a few things: your existing state of mind, the physical environment / location of the experience, preparations (if any) made for the experience, and arguably most importantly (IMHO), your intention or reason for seeking the experience. If you go at it with the attitude that this is simply a reason to get high, or to observe visual disturbances for the sheer sa…

If the effect only manifests when you think about it correctly, is it a placebo?

And this is precisely where trying to measure a unique experience with microscopes and well-established materialist scientific theorems begins to fail us. An experience, by the way, that many call the 'most important' of their life. They describe it as 'noetic' in that it seems more real than ordinary consensus reality, and 'ineffible' in that it cannot be successfully described, it must be experienced firsthand.

These aren't just the waxings of a hippie distracted at work, I can point you to studies that demonstrate the repeatability of it all (i.e., 'most important experience of life' claims, noetic properties, ineffable, etc.) Many people use these descriptors when regarding their respective psychedelic journeys.

In my opinion, the reason some people have awe-inspiring life-changing experiences and some just see neat visuals or have the ominous 'bad trip' goes back to my first comment. Set, setting, and intention are absolutely everything with these substances. The stuff just seems to be of a higher order, and it seems it gives you just what you deserve.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#125

Post by empath75 »

sn9 wrote: post #122
empath75 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drug experiences are still experiences and like any experience, you can learn something from them or waste them. At the absolute least, a psychedelic experience should teach you a lesson about the reliability of the senses and about how subjective our experience of reality can be, which is a valuable lesson to learn, IMO, and no matter how much you understand it intellectually, directly experiencing it is another mat…

It seems like the people profiled in the article failed to learn that completely. Instead they go on about plant spirits and vibrations and other things they hallucinated as if they were actually real. That the perception of truth and truth itself are the same thing. You don't need drugs at all to learn how subjective our own perceptions of reality are. And the risks suggest that it would be unwise to do so.

Like I said, you can waste it, amd lots of people do. Some people go through their entire lives and learn nothing. I'm sure you can appreciate that reading about a rose is not the same as smelling and seeing and holding a rose, though.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#126

Post by empath75 »

oldmanjay wrote: post #44
steauengeglase wrote: post #36

While I don't doubt the psychological benefits of ayahuasca (or any hallucinogenic), the language of many of those advocating in the article set off red flags. "Format your harddrive", reminds of Arch Oboler's "Society of the Cosmos", something dreamed up by Evangelical hucksters who didn't see a future in peddling Jesus so they turned to techno speak to wring out the marks. "We manifest abundance wherever we go," so…

I feel like the sheer amount of bullshit surrounding these drugs leaves me with a duty to take heavy doses of psychedelics and proudly learn nothing but "boy that was fun"

Yeah, there is a lot of bullshit around psychedelics, and it's totally possible to take them and just have fun, but if you're interested in the way the mind works and how we piece together reality from our perceptions, there is a lot to work with there. I think where people go wrong is in thinking that drug experiences show you some truth that's hidden from you in normal life. It really just shows you how ill equipped your brain is to understand reality, or how ill-conceived the idea of 'reality' really is.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#127

Post by ap22213 »

throwanem wrote: post #73
ap22213 wrote: post #45

Why does the plant produce DMT? Is it a poison? Are there other plants that produce it? I wonder about the evolutionary reasons for its emergence. Does the plant influence the Human so that the Human protects and nurtures the plant? When did Humans begin altering South America? 15,000 years ago? More than enough time for the plant to adapt. It's a strange feeling to ingest a hallucination producing organism. I rememb…

Might want to spend some time thinking about that phrase "evolutionary reasons". There's an assumption in there I'm not sure you've noticed.

That's pretty cryptic... Ok, what do you mean? I'm dense.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#128

Post by wtbob »

I wonder what the effects of chemically-induced pseudowisdom are. Real wisdom, after all, is both physiological and mental, a product of experience as well as of neurochemistry. What might be the ill-effects of feeling that one has gained wisdom when in fact one has only altered one's brain chemistry?

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#129

Post by nl »

stinkytaco wrote: post #72
fragola wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed on the bullshit. I think this might have something to do with me growing up in a certain hippy town on the California coast, but I couldn't get through this article without a lot of eye-rolling. OK, let's just put the whole drug thing aside and call it a hobby. You can have a hobby without having a pseudospiritual and vaguely appropriative justification for it. Bodybuilders have a term that they use to describ…

Offtopic, but unfortunately broscience has extended beyond pharmaceuticals to training practice. This kind of thinking dominates the crossfit world with terms like "muscle confusion" and "failure". It's sad because I got into crossfit ten years ago because it was fun, something different every day kept me coming back. I didn't want to be a Navy SEAL, just to keep active, but the almost religious adherence to the trai…

I hear good things about parkour. Never tried it myself though.

Re: The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

#130

Post by pixl97 »

thescribe wrote: post #100
trappedintime wrote: post #94

The experience you will have is tremendously dependent on a few things: your existing state of mind, the physical environment / location of the experience, preparations (if any) made for the experience, and arguably most importantly (IMHO), your intention or reason for seeking the experience. If you go at it with the attitude that this is simply a reason to get high, or to observe visual disturbances for the sheer sa…

If the effect only manifests when you think about it correctly, is it a placebo?

When people watch scary movies, why is it they are more likely to have a nightmare afterwards?

Our brain chemistry is exceedingly complex. Also, our emotional state primes our brain with other chemicals. Fear can produce a rush of adrenilne, for example.

So yes, thinking about it 'correctly' changes your brain. Your brain is a chemical reaction, so adding another thought modifying chemical is likely to have different results based on the chemicals already there.

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