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How the Arab World Came Apart

nytimes.com

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Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#121

Post by ihsw »

hacker42 wrote: post #82
ihsw wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overly binding is subjective and many benefit from the strong social support provided by Islamic communities, and furthermore to feel jealousy towards other cultures is very un-Islamic. That said, I continue to assert that your arguments are red herrings -- attempts to indirectly answer one question with another's answer. Fixing the issues you brought up are unrelated to removing Islam's influence on the people of th…

I think addressing cultural flaws more directly could make such social programs more effective.

Calling them cultural flaws and saying they need to be addressed is one of the worst first steps you can take, but setting aside that there are already many Muslims integrating into Western society without having directly addressed the those issues.

Simply allowing them to participate in Western society is enough to sufficiently "address" those issues, as many will naturally gravitate towards more progressive and liberal lifestyles.

I have seen many Muslim women driving, walking outside, and showing their faces without incident, but I think it's important to point out that there are plenty of non-Muslim cultures that punish unmarried women for public displays of affection (including simply being present with a non-relative male).

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#122

Post by nickik »

douche wrote: post #81
nailer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think Saudi will fall apart?

Of course it will. Someday, there won't be enough bread and circuses and sinecures for all of the extended offshoots of the House of Saud, and somebody will stir up popular, probably religious, discontent, or else a disaffected faction of the government/royalty will stage a coup. Besides that, it is a regime, and really, a nation, that is entirely predicated on petro-dollars. They have been fighting a price war again…

The Saudis will eventually fall, but thats not gone be anytime soon. If the carrot does not work anymore, they have the stick. Just look at Saddam, he was not popular but managed to remain in power for a long time. The Saudis have more money, and a easier to repress, less divided population.

The Saudis will be fine for a long time.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#123

Post by mustaflex »

wtbob wrote: post #72
curiousgal wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nobody has time to thrive when they have to prey five times a day Ah huh. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age

People always point to that, but the Islamic Golden Age was no more Islamic than Bonnie & Clyde's benders were financed by Bonnie & Clyde (rather than the folks whose money they'd stolen from banks). The fruits of the so-called Islamic Golden Age were planted by Classical civilisation, watered and tended by Zoroastrians, Jews & Christians — and harvested by Islam. Indeed, even during the 'Golden Age' many of the grea…

"many of the great lights were not of Islamic extraction"

... really? many of them ? can you please write "many" more from "non Islamic extraction"

"El-Khwarizmi, who was from a Zoroastrian family and may have converted out of economic or political expediency"

...So one particular scholar is not really a "muslim", soo it must that everything else worthy must be from non-muslim people

"but on the whole the Islamic Golden Age was what one would expect when a supremely wealthy but weak empire (the Eastern Romans) is conquered by poor but strong barbarians: the conquerors are rich & happy for decades, living off of the wealth they have taken."

...So they were just plunderers?

This is textbook western self-propaganda.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#124

Post by intended »

Noseshine wrote: post #105
jcbeard wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The invasion of Iraq was stupid. It was likely illegal, based on false pretenses, and well....shouldn't have happened. The invasions initial execution was beautiful (first few days). The US Military performed splendidly. The follow through (driven by political leaders) was idiotic. Stupid decisions like not listening to his generals (Bush), disbanding the Iraqi security forces (Paul Bremer), and the odd focus on turn…

I wonder how much use there is in putting a lot more effort into any of those countries. My angle is climate change. There is a record-breaking heat wave going on there right now, with temperatures close to making human life impossible. Outlook: Getting a lot worse. They already have water shortages. The population still is growing. The trouble in Syria is said to have been caused with a mismanaged big drought as a m…

> infrastructure for AC-based indoor living in the entire region and beyond

Thats a huge amount of constant power and infrastructure, which is just not going to be built.

Easier to build an underground city with high ceilings and taking advantage of physics than managing to give AC to everyone in the region, which is to say both options are extremely difficult and require pre-existing infrastructure.

And this still doesn't solve the problem of what precisely people will do for work in the region

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#125

Post by acqq »

anonu wrote: post #110
giis wrote: post #60

Just last week, I watched this documentary called "Saudi Arabia Uncovered" to understand its current state. Its on youtube.

Yes - its quite well done. It is a PBS Frontline Documentary: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/saudi-arabia-uncovere... . Also, more salient to the NYT article, I would strongly suggest http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/the-secret-history-of... . The synposis on the latter is: The Bush Administration was so intent on proving the existence of WMD's in Iraq that they inadvertently gave power to what was soon…

Also worth seeing is "Why We Did It" - The Invasion of Iraq.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#126

Post by [deleted] »

ekianjo wrote: post #104
cstross wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the best thing that could happen to them. ... In the long term. In the short term, it's going to be very, very bad for them indeed, as the sole source of foreign exchange goes away and the ordinary folks find themselves abandoned in a climate-change-drought-crippled land that has become populated well above its agricultural carrying capacity, and the elite jets off to enjoy their stolen wealth in Switzerland.

> In the short term, it's going to be very, very bad for them indeed It's not like they would not see it coming. Petrol is eventually going to become too expensive at some point, and they should invest accordingly. But numerous past examples of countries relying on raw resources have shown they usually don't adapt and plan, so I don't have too much hope in their case either.

[deleted]

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#127

Post by spriggan3 »

ihsw wrote: post #86
jomamaxx wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preventing women from driving, from being in public without family members, from touching others, from having other see their face etc. etc. is 100% part of the 'intellectual deficit' imposed by Arabic flavours of Islam. Islam is a religion, an ideology and a culture all blended into one. Parts of it are bad. But I don't think it's any of that. I think it's something simpler: there is nothing in the desert. It's real…

You are confusing Islam with the cultures of the Arabian Peninsula -- it may be the birthplace of Islam but Muslims have done much more than eek out a meager existence among sand dunes. Education curriculum, fairness, equality, social justice, civic duty, personal accountability -- all of these things are similarly as present in Islam as they are anywhere else. Also, governance by royal decree is one of the most un-I…

> Education curriculum, fairness, equality, social justice, civic duty, personal accountability

The problem is which form they take. Women are clearly not men's equal in the Koran. The Koran talks about all these subjects, it doesn't mean it promotes these. According the to Koran(and the Bible) , slavery is acceptable, the Koran even tells how Muslims should treat their slaves. Is that the fairness,equality and social justice you are talking about ? Or are you twisting the meaning of these words at first place ?

You can argue the Koran is a product of its time,which it totally is. Saying that is a good way to invalidate the fact that it should be taken as "the final, perfect word of \"God\" " if it should be read in context. But it's forbidden for Muslims to criticize the Koran at first place... so back to square one.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#128

Post by agumonkey »

hacker42 wrote: post #19
not_a_terrorist wrote: post #7

tl:dr 100 pages: 1) People are fucking poor and hungry (extreme wealth inequalities) 2) Salafi/Wahhabi (Saudi) funding of islamism 3) Antediluvian hatred between people (it goes, way, way, way farther back than Sykes-Picot)

It seems they are missing an important factor, namely 4) the personal, cultural and economical impairment due to the religion of Islam. Nobody has time to thrive when they have to pray five times a day, when almost every thought and action is dictated by an old book and when half of their human potential is hidden in cloth bags.

How long is a prayer in Islam ? it's an interesting idea but it's hard to believe that this has such a significant impact.

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#129

Post by danielbln »

cmdrfred wrote: post #95
tdkl wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (sounds like somebody that's running for president this year) Someone else running for president this year has pledged that the first act of her address would be removing Assad. Which brings us back at the beginning of stupid actions.

She has to pay for the campaign/Clinton foundation donations somehow. Mark my words a vote for Hillary is a vote for war.[0] [0] https://www.publicintegrity.org/2016/04/01/19496/defense-con...

So the choice is between war hawk and unpredictable megalomaniac. Sophie's choice of US politics...

Re: How the Arab World Came Apart

#130

Post by John23832 »

mustaflex wrote: post #123
wtbob wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People always point to that, but the Islamic Golden Age was no more Islamic than Bonnie & Clyde's benders were financed by Bonnie & Clyde (rather than the folks whose money they'd stolen from banks). The fruits of the so-called Islamic Golden Age were planted by Classical civilisation, watered and tended by Zoroastrians, Jews & Christians — and harvested by Islam. Indeed, even during the 'Golden Age' many of the grea…

"many of the great lights were not of Islamic extraction" ... really? many of them ? can you please write "many" more from "non Islamic extraction" "El-Khwarizmi, who was from a Zoroastrian family and may have converted out of economic or political expediency" ...So one particular scholar is not really a "muslim", soo it must that everything else worthy must be from non-muslim people "but on the whole the Islamic Gol…

Don't pin this on western's. There are definitely those of us who have a grasp on history. This guy/gal has a readily apparent bias.
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