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Fentanyl, a stealth killer

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Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#121

Post by MichaelGG »

Aelinsaar wrote: post #108
MichaelGG wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opiates are not anywhere nearly as harmful as alcohol. Apart from overdosing, there's very little side effect, generally. (Some people don't tolerate them well.) The health issues that junkies have is usually due to poor hygiene - many places don't even let them buy needles! The legal aspects cause all of this. They raise prices, make supply hard, encourage fraud, discourage help, increase the terrible social stigma.…

I'm curious, you seem very passionate about this topic, why is that?

I know a fair amount of people that have used, some that died. I've been robbed by a relative so he could sell my shit to buy drugs. Yet I strongly believe that people should be able to make their own decisions, that personal freedoms are worth the price of people deciding to use whatever medicine they want.

In this thread there's a lot of blaming of a chemical. There's a lot of blaming people getting caught by laws. Jaywalking is more dangerous to third parties than these drugs, yet we would not accept this kind of attitude toward jaywalkers.

People conflate the situation of drug use with the actual effects of substance. Even in this thread there's people bemoaning that junkies will do anything. While failing to acknowledge it's purely an artificial constraint that creates this situation in the first place.

Antibiotics are far more dangerous. It provides a serious threat to everyone, even those that don't engage. Where are the task forces raiding and jailing people for that? I can personally go purchase a 4th line antibiotic in about 20 minutes, but I can't get strong pain relievers?

The war on drugs, including (perhaps most importantly) the social attitudes, keeps countries in poverty and disarray. Look at Latin America, and how much money and blood, crime and fear is caused by this idiocy. Yet much of the population still views "dealers" and "drug traffickers" as inherently vile. In some countries, they have basically no drug user issues, yet they pay this ridiculous price.

I find it abhorrent to have for-profit gatekeepers deciding what people cannot do with their own bodies (or possessions for that matter). It's far worse than say, DRM or Apple-style device lockdown.

Edit: Perhaps I'm also excitable. I'd probably get annoyed if commenters kept repeating that "function" was a fine length for the lambda keyword/syntax, while simultaneously saying lambdas are too verbose.

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#122

Post by MichaelGG »

tigershark wrote: post #114
MichaelGG wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legalization would avoid the shitty stuff part of junkies, for the most part. Or at least mitigate it to a huge extent, since costs would go down. Oxycodone, for instance, goes for about 30-100x on the street than at a grocery store. If gas was 50x more expensive, we'd probably see some desperate behaviour for a while.

How can anyone that can't even work because lives his life in a continuous high afford something even if it is cheaper without stealing?

You'd be surprised at just how many professionals are on opiates. With those hundreds of millions of prescriptions, where are they all going?

Maybe your experience will differ. Keep your eyes out for pinned pupils when next dealing with lawyers, doctors, engineers, executives, etc.

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#123

Post by MichaelGG »

jessaustin wrote: post #115
MichaelGG wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having been in non-drug, legal, harm situations, there's a huge pressure not to involve authorities. Embarrassment and hassle, costs (perhaps not in Canada) are bad enough. Legal and social repercussions due to officially having a problem on your record can really damage. (Applies to people seeking mental health help, too!) Add in potential to be arrested and it's not hard to see why someone might delay or even let s…

You're right, of course. The coworker was probably quite young, and the outcomes you describe loomed larger for her than the actual outcome. This sort of thing really ought to be addressed in high school, but unfortunately all we get is, "drugs're bad, mmm-kay?"

If the coworker had drugs on them, the potential outcomes might actually _be_ far worse than the actual outcome here. They'll feel like shit. But you know, in a few years, the emotional pain will have subsided quite a bit. And it wasn't really their fault, directly, totally - it'll get rationalized.

Whereas a drug arrest, a criminal history, that could take much more work and time to get over.

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#124

Post by MichaelGG »

tigershark wrote: post #118
ryanlol wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opiates are consumed every day by tens of millions of people in the world and they have absolutely no harmful effects if taken according to prescription. That opiates when used in proper doses are extremely safe from a physical point of view is an indisputable fact.

For pain relief, not for getting high.

There's basically no difference. Chronic pain users will end up on ever higher doses and get rx's with amounts that'll make junkies jealous. Severe pain might make them even more tolerant to the drug.

Even then: I've had IV morphine at the hospital after getting my knee run through. I was high as hell. I've had hydrocodone given to me after hurting my back. Totally high, blissed out. Seems to be the common complaint: "I got pain pills, but they made me loopy!"

It's like when people say meth (or Adderall or Ritalin) works differently on people with ADHD. No it doesn't, they're just coming from a different baseline. It'll help anyone think better.

There might be some long-term problems with opiate use. Like reduced testosterone. Maybe reduced immunity (hard to tell, since so many chronic pain patients have severe illness). Prolonged constipation can certainly cause issues, too.

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#125

Post by knucklesandwich »

encoderer wrote: post #102
vonklaus wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make any sense. Having seen a fair amount of shit, I go back and forth. Should heroin be legal? It would certainly lower the price, but it would definitely create more addicts. This isn't a headache, that is theft. Clearly, there is a difference between opportunistically taking a few pills and working your way into someones life to rob them repeatedly. This reflects on the person and while I don't know i…

Addiction is way less harmful if it's legal. Clean needles, consistent dosages, better healthcare, no stealing/theft/lying/etc. If it's legal it's just a physical dependence. Other physical dependencies we have include: food, water, and air and we manage those OK. I agree, heroin is nasty stuff. But, we cannot eradicate it. In a free and liberal society, it's a farce that it's even a choice. It's a choice between den…

I'm generally in favor of some form of legalization, but I feel like this conversation has a tendency to become very hand-wavy and legalization can be overly evangelized as a panacea for systemic problems related to addiction.

Firstly, what does legalization mean? Legal to prescribe? Legal to purchase over the counter after a certain age? Full, unrestricted legality? In weaker forms of these I think there's a case to be made that a black market doesn't disappear, but perhaps changes its business model. There's still benefits to be gained, in terms of more safety to addicts from impurities, but it seems difficult to claim that you can really control an addicts dosage when a black market can arise to meet their wants for higher dosages.

I don't think we should criminalize addiction directly, but I think that's really only part of the picture.

Part of the troubles of being an addict stem from stigmatization. We need to evolve from seeing addicts as degenerates and liars and instead as people suffering. We need a social climate that encourages addicts to seek help without social or criminal penalties. We need more addiction treatment programs, and we need treatment programs that don't impose their own judgements about getting clean through substitute drugs. We probably need to have lesser penalties for crimes that may be related to addiction (i.e. petty theft to pay for an addiction) or else we're simply criminalizing the addict in another way.

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#126

Post by [deleted] »

pizza wrote: post #3

Just because fentanyl has a shit therapeutic index doesn't mean it has a high body count (it gets used just fine even in tandem with other depressants in clinical circumstances...) - I would say the problem is more in the hands of the tough-on-crime lawmakers who seem to lack, at least in my neck of the woods, remorse. Also, look up sufentanil, and once you feel you're ready, carfentanil.. Also, yes, yes, fentanyl is…

[deleted]

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#127

Post by notacoward »

Aelinsaar wrote: post #107
ourmandave wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, look up sufentanil, and once you feel you're ready, carfentanil.. So I did. And now my browser history is filled with random message boards of people discussing their tripping experiences with various chemicals. Also learned that most people consider Carfentanil crazy dangerous. And his bigger brother Ohmefentanyl is straight up poison.

...People are shooting up Wildnil?!?!?! I assume they're mostly dying.

They probably are, and in part because of reassuring BS such as at the top of this thread. Just because something seems safe from a completely rational perspective or that of someone highly educated doesn't mean real people in less privileged circumstances won't suffer from it. Theory and practice are only the same in theory.

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#128

Post by opiatethrowaway »

tigershark wrote: post #113
MichaelGG wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opiates are not anywhere nearly as harmful as alcohol. Apart from overdosing, there's very little side effect, generally. (Some people don't tolerate them well.) The health issues that junkies have is usually due to poor hygiene - many places don't even let them buy needles! The legal aspects cause all of this. They raise prices, make supply hard, encourage fraud, discourage help, increase the terrible social stigma.…

This is probably the biggest lie that I ever heard in my life. Go on and take your opiates if makes you happy, but don't try to deny reality. Alcohol is assumed every day by billions people in the world and it has absolutely no harmful effects if taken moderately. Actually there are several studies about the healthy effect of one glass of wine a day. A junkie instead cannot take his sh.t with moderation and will suff…

You're completely off base here. Many times more people die of alcohol than heroin and prescription analogs put together. Also, there are tons of people who use opiates responsibly and in moderation--I'm one of them. Finally, lose the anger, it's a symptom of alcoholism ;)

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#129

Post by opiatethrowaway »

dopamean wrote: post #62
brainfire wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know where you're from, but my personal experience in my area (Maryland, USA) is that everything in your post is incorrect.

I'm from New York and now living in Austin, TX. I'll add that from my experience I agree that what he said was incorrect.

I can also concur. My dealer cares more about me than anyone except my mom.

Re: Fentanyl, a stealth killer

#130

Post by Spooky23 »

downandout wrote: post #77
MichaelGG wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's not legitimate? Withdrawal is probably one of the worst physical experiences someone can go through. On top of that, do you know why she was on the medication in the first place? Would you have the same attitude if she was taking SSRIs for depression, couldn't afford them (or wasn't allowed to have them!), and stole them instead?

I don't know all of the details as to how she became addicted to them, but it certainly wasn't a financial issue. Her husband owned a chain of auto body shops and was by all accounts worth at least a few million dollars.

It often starts with an injury.

I had a chronic back problem, for which I was prescribed a whole bunch of painkillers. After Vioxx and Celebrex were pulled, that was the only real option for any kind of relief.

Those drugs give me a headache, and I didn't take them... But if I did, I would have taken hundreds of the things for a couple of years.

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