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Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B

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Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B

#121
post #116
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your post and you list a number of good ideas. Except... > If you really want you can tax companies' revenue (not profits). That one doesn't really work. Some industries are very low margin and capital intensive. There is, realistically, no level of revenue based tax that a supermarket chain can pay. Maaaaybe 1%. Max. Same goes for airlines, steel mills, and a thousand other old-school bricks and mortar…

I've always wondered if you could combine corporate income taxes with a law against "passing on" those taxes. As in—by law, the company would have to do its accounting and business model analysis as if it wasn't paying that tax. The individual employees would be fully aware that the company is days away from bankruptcy, but by law they wouldn't be allowed to charge more, because—in the magical legal-fiction alternate…

> could [you] combine corporate income taxes with a law against "passing on" those taxes.

Short answer: No. Tax incidence doesn't work that way.

Long answer: The concept doesn't even make sense; a company can pay taxes in an accounting sense, but not in an economic one. Since a corporation is not a real person, every dollar of tax is by definition passed on; all we can do is try and figure out if it's being passed on to customers (via higher prices), employees (via lower wages), or investors (via lower returns). But, obviously, every dollar going into the treasury is a dollar not going into some real person's pocket. Unless we start letting companies cover their tax bills by printing money. :)

Of course, what you probably meant was "a law against passing on those taxes to specific groups"; you're looking for a way to force the tax to be passed on to investors and not employees (or whatever). In which case the answer is...

...still no. Because tax incidence (which is the technical name for this) isn't just a matter of deciding how to divy up a tax bill. If investors face lower returns, they'll invest less money (both because they'll have less money to invest, because they'll decide to invest in other areas where taxes are lower, and because they'll decide to consume more and invest less). Investment, at an industry level, is strongly correlated with productivity (eg, build a new factory and your employees can make more widgets), and productivity (again at an industry level) is strongly correlated with wages. Or in other words: If you tax investment in an industry heavily, you'll end up with decrepit plant and poorly paid workers. That's how taxes on investment end up being born by workers, not by some sort of conscious decision to cut wages to free up more money for dividends.

And no law is going to stop it either. Is a union supposed to bargain with a company as if there were other employers in the industry paying high wages, even though there aren't, because there's been industry-wide under-investment for the past 10 years? Does your law force investors to invest as if they were receiving dividends, even though they're not? Does this law apply to foreign investors? Are you going to try and order round some massive Middle Eastern sovereign wealth fund and tell them how much they would have invested without the tax, and send them an invoice for the balance?

In short: The issue has been well studied. It might work in a world without trade, globalization, and the free-ish movement of labour, capital, and goods. It doesn't work in our world.

Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B

#122
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think paying taxes is a virtue ? Why does US government need 40% of our hard earned money ? May be American politicians should stop the war on drugs, wars in far off countries and medicare and reduce tax levels to 20%. Facebook, Google, Apple and push the frontiers of human knowledge at rapid rate if they can spend that money themselves. In case of government it will be used to by some junk airforce planes…

> Facebook Google and apple shouldnt be taxed BC theyre r and d Lol. Most real frontier level r and d is funded by the gov with tax money, especially the not for profit r and d focused on energy and health sectors. The only r and d the tech cos you named do is targeted to make profit for themselves which is why they pay taxes. I agree that a lot of tax money is wasted but some of it is used for critical research. Whe…

Government barely spends and money on research and most of it is on subjects that have 0 impact on anything for example giving heroine to monkeys.

Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B

#123
post #57
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think paying taxes is a virtue ? Why does US government need 40% of our hard earned money ? May be American politicians should stop the war on drugs, wars in far off countries and medicare and reduce tax levels to 20%. Facebook, Google, Apple and push the frontiers of human knowledge at rapid rate if they can spend that money themselves. In case of government it will be used to by some junk airforce planes…

Your taxes would be a lot lower if the biggest corporations were paying their fair share.

There is not such thing as "fair share" of what someone else has earned.

Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B

#124
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think paying taxes is a virtue ? Why does US government need 40% of our hard earned money ? May be American politicians should stop the war on drugs, wars in far off countries and medicare and reduce tax levels to 20%. Facebook, Google, Apple and push the frontiers of human knowledge at rapid rate if they can spend that money themselves. In case of government it will be used to by some junk airforce planes…

Serious question: who pays an effective rate of 40 percent? Many of these huge corporate entities are in the single or negative digits.

They hire very expensive lawyers and accountants to pay less or simply bribe politicians (read speech money) to keep loopholes that will benefit them. As a result a lot of money is wasted to totally unproductive efforts while increasing corruption and lowering respect of the tax system.

Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B

#125
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies do not care about long-term spending, that’s the thing. Education only makes an effect 30+years out. Most companies care about the next quartal, if you’re lucky.

Really? Total private R&D budgets are greater than $100B per year. I'd say that's long term focus.

Lol. That's nothing. Alone the German government spends more than that on publicly funded research, and there's about 200 countries more on the planet.

If companies would be so long-term focused, have you ever seen one lobby for higher corporate taxes in exchange for free public colleges and schools of highest quality, to ensure they get the best possibly educated workers? No? Exactly.

Have you seen companies spend their money with plans of how the world will look like in 50 or 100 years?

The most ambitious projects are from Musk, who is doing them with lots of subsidies because even he couldn't fund them otherwise, and they're about 5 years out in the future.

Have you seen a private company spend hundreds of billions every year into fusion research, because it might have results in decades?

Have you seen private companies focus on building transit networks and cities of the next century, slowly, part by part?

No.

The most ambitious private project ever planned was Walt Disneys epcot, but it was never built, and the name just reused for a themepark attraction.

Private companies have more available funds combined than most governments, yet still soend orders of magnitudes less on education for the next generation, on optimizing cities for the future.

You see companies actively destroy cities so they can get a little cheaper results for themselves this quarter.

Saying "private companies will be willing to pay twice the tax if they get more profit in 100 years" is just wrong, because no private company has ever planned like that, and will ever plan like that.

Except for the German Mittelstand and a handful of Japanese medium businesses, most comoanies haven't even existed for a century or longer.

Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B

#126
post #123
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your taxes would be a lot lower if the biggest corporations were paying their fair share.

There is not such thing as "fair share" of what someone else has earned.

Sure there is. It's what we vote on and agree to as members of a democratic society.

No one earns anything in a vacuum. Money doesn't exist without society. Taxes reflect that.

Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B

#127
post #95
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government, by definition, can be more efficient than any private entity because it never needs to produce a profit. Businesses need to be able to skim a little off for the owners. Government can provide services at cost, no mark up. If you're unhappy with the implementation of a specific program, like Medicare (which is, of course, more efficient than private health insurance in the US), let's talk about that. My pi…

But profit creates an incentive for efficiency. Sell the same thing for 1% lower than your competitor and that goes right into your pocket. Our current gov't system provide very little incentive for efficient use of funds. I'm not arguing that all of these programs need to just disappear. I'm arguing a "race to the bottom" in terms of efficiency is a good thing, not a bad thing for gov'ts.

I think the kind of constant oversight and worrying over how our tax dollars are spent creates an incentive for efficiency. And the ability to vote regularly on elected officials who guide our programs, that too creates an incentive for efficiency.

Having seen what races to the bottom do in various other industries, I shudder to think of how government works would suffer under the same pressure. Not the kind of society I'd want to aspire to live in.

Re: Facebook Tax Bill Over Ireland Move Could Cost $5B

#128
post #112

My view is that corporate income tax is just a very bad idea. It will always introduce a lot of judgement problems and you will always need to assess every single transaction. Is it "fair price" or is it done to funnel money somewhere? Those questions are impossible to answer objectively and we shouldn't really care. Tax owners of the corporation. Tax people for living in a nice place (land tax, real estate tax, all…

I agree with your post and you list a number of good ideas. Except... > If you really want you can tax companies' revenue (not profits). That one doesn't really work. Some industries are very low margin and capital intensive. There is, realistically, no level of revenue based tax that a supermarket chain can pay. Maaaaybe 1%. Max. Same goes for airlines, steel mills, and a thousand other old-school bricks and mortar…

I agree about revenue tax - it's problematic. My issues with VAT are:

1)It's very easy to go around - VAT cheating in EU is rampant, for example in my country it's estimated to be about 10% of total yearly budget (not only VAT, total)

2)It's impossible to collect from businesses operating abroad which don't ship physical goods. There is no way EU is going to go after a guy in Thailand for selling software unless he becomes a big fish. Until then he is unfairly competing with all EU developers who pay-up ~20% on every license sold to EU countries.

The idea of consumption tax appeals to me in general (if land/real estate taxes aren't enough) but it would need to be somehow collected from the buyer (for example for using a currency) and that's not going to happen.

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