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How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

nytimes.com

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Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#121

Post by madaxe_again »

guard-of-terra wrote: post #82
madaxe_again wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, despite his sons residency and employment both being dependent on the uk's continued membership of the EU, you think this was a rational, kind decision?

I don't think they're dependent on the UK's membership of the EU that much. First, there's plenty of people not from EU who participate in European research on European grants. Think Russians in CERN and so on. Second, secession from EU doesn't mean freedom of travel will be thwarted for scientists. UK was already not on Schengen, so what? At worst they'll have get a visa every few years. In short, that person might…

He's at a European university on an EU grant via a British institution. It's hard to see how that would continue.

There was no rationale behind his leave vote other than the EU being the "empire of evil" that we must free ourselves from for freedom. Same applied to everyone else I spoke with that evening.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#122

Post by rtcensored »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #77
reddytowns wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Tech bros" don't like their jobs outsourced to India. That's comparable to your examples, yet they are mostly upper class. In addition, people are concerned about things that effect themselves . The elites don't care about the neighborhoods they don't live in, or the jobs they don't have to compete for. But they do care about profit, and about getting richer. In all of the examples you gave, that motivation would wo…

I've never actually met a tech bro who objected except on HN. Everyone I've met has been fine with economic competition from people unlike them. But I could be wrong - do you have evidence that tech is even remotely as protectionist as the trump/Bernie voting masses? The local elites don't need to compete for CEO jobs with Satya Nadella or Sunder Pichai? That's news to me.

The people you are talking about are either your coworkers or those you've met in a workplace related environment, correct? Management wants to do the best things as quickly and cheaply as possible, and anyone who speaks out about it publicly or to their coworkers would be doing harm to their career.

The same is true in any industry. On the factory floor, workers who complain loudly about immigrants working side by side them at the workplace will get them fired.

The same people who you think are all for globalization of the workforce, may also be part of the "trump/Bernie voting masses" behind closed doors.

As for the CEO jobs, there isn't a large group of voters that identify with candidates. I mean, this is getting kind of silly. Do I really need to explain why someone competing for a CEO job with an immigrant can't look to the political process to help them?

And anyway, even if I'm wrong and tech workers are for the race to the bottom, you are quibbling about minor things while ignoring my main point. Do you really think there is morality in denying the lower class a voice to help change the situation they are in? Are the laws shat out by our ancestors so great we cannot change them, even though the result turned out not to be so good? Is it like a board game, in that if you lose, it's unfair to complain because you should have been able to deduce what would happen from the beginning?

What, exactly, do you mean when you refer to the elite as "honest, moral and principled individuals" in your parent post?

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#123

Post by madaxe_again »

pjc50 wrote: post #87
madaxe_again wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, it just pissed me off almightily that I got downmodded for asking a question, so went for plan b: bait. Those "ancient nations" are mostly less than a century old. Europe has been a superstate several times previously, although it admittedly hasn't lasted under political or religious hegemony.

The age of nations is quite a key difference in how things are seen from the UK (300 years old, with England claiming 800 years of constitutional monarchy with only one interruption) vs the rest of Europe, much of which wasn't in its current form or system of government in 1950. To Europe, the EU represents stability. To the UK, it represents change.

Only one interruption? I assume you refer to the interregnum - but there were plenty of violent successions, imports of royalty from overseas to continue the crown, and changes in governance so fundamental it's hard to view it as the same state.

I mean, you don't consider yourself French, do you? If you view yourself as being a member of that "continuous" state, you should, for by that measure we are Normans.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#124

Post by pjc50 »

return0 wrote: post #120
pjc50 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replacing the "elite" with an underspecified, possibly unachievable "something else" is begging for a void. Come on, we're software engineers; we know how crazy it is to turn off a working system without having a viable plan for its replacement.

> underspecified, possibly unachievable "something else" I think it's pretty well outlined what is that "something else". The implementation is not there (obviously), but the API exists, for example anti-immigration, [edit]pro-protectionism etc. Most people dismiss it as non-existent though, due to liberal reflexes.

Being anti-immigration is protectionism, though. Especially for the services sector. The two things are in direct contradiction to one another. The specific motivation for objecting to immigration (other than straight racism) is "protecting jobs".

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#125

Post by pjc50 »

madaxe_again wrote: post #123
pjc50 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The age of nations is quite a key difference in how things are seen from the UK (300 years old, with England claiming 800 years of constitutional monarchy with only one interruption) vs the rest of Europe, much of which wasn't in its current form or system of government in 1950. To Europe, the EU represents stability. To the UK, it represents change.

Only one interruption? I assume you refer to the interregnum - but there were plenty of violent successions, imports of royalty from overseas to continue the crown, and changes in governance so fundamental it's hard to view it as the same state. I mean, you don't consider yourself French, do you? If you view yourself as being a member of that "continuous" state, you should, for by that measure we are Normans.

It doesn't matter if it's true or not, it's tradition :) This kind of objection is like pointing out that the Royal family are German in origin and Prince Philip is an immigrant by marriage; it's true, but not in any way relevant to the kind of people who regard the monarchy as important.

All nations have a chunk of mythos holding them together. Brexit seems to be popular among people who think that Churchill's History of the English-Speaking Peoples is good history.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#126

Post by objectivistbrit »

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #69
objectivistbrit wrote: post #47

I'm pro-economic liberty and voted for Brexit. Every analysis like this has tunnel vision: yes, the free trade opened up by the EU brought prosperity to an entire continent. Had we been voting for the 1970s era EEC, I'd have gladly voted Remain. But in 40 years the EEC has evolved into the EU, with a constitution, a parliament, a president, a national anthem, a flag, supreme law-making powers and a currency. Maybe th…

> The EU is a world-historical experiment in social democracy - free markets + state regulation + the welfare state. The consensus is that this system represents the current pinnacle of political evolution. Where does the EU provide the means for a welfare state? Do jobless people get money from the EU? Any country can handle its own version of welfare state. There is no mandate from the EU. The perception is usually…

I should have been clearer: every country in the EU has a welfare state, and since the more fiscally responsible countries bankroll the less responsible, they're indirectly supporting welfare recipients in those countries. Plus direct support via the EU's many handout programmes (CAP, etc).

In absolute terms, the amounts involved aren't huge right now, but this is a problem that will grow worse with time as a) most European countries have aging populations and face a pensions timebomb and b ) cutting welfare spending is politically very difficult.

Some voices in the EU have been pushing for a welfare and pensions union. It's impossible to predict if this will actually happen, but it shows that many people want to head in that direction.

The EU is indeed more pro-market than many member nations. This is where the left/right axis just confuses the debate. 'Market-friendly social democracy' is the most accurate term for the system promoted by the EU (and the linked NYT article, and most educated elites): a system with 1) free enterprise 2) state regulation of industry 3) state management of the economy and currency and 4) a welfare state.

It's a compromise system which appears capitalistic (and is denounced as neoliberal) but the underlying theory is socialist (a descendant of the gradualist theories promoted by most anti-communist socialists of past generations). History will tell whether it's sustainable.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#127

Post by dageshi »

return0 wrote: post #119
dageshi wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the UK tried very hard to avoid the creation of the euro but when it became apparant that it was going to happen anyway it got itself an opt out. I think after that the UK largely disengaged because the common view was the currency couldn't succeed without a much higher level of political integration than was being proposed at the time and the British public simply wasn't interested. So I think you're incor…

Yep , but that was 20+ years ago (plus apparently the UK succeeded in steering the EU as separate from the eurozone; that's why it's not rallying countries NOT to join the euro ). The Brexit debate was not really about euro, however, it was all about immigration.

And why is there such high immigration to the UK from the EU? Perhaps because numerous economies within the EU continue to suffer with high unemployment, especially high youth unemployment which has forced their citizens to move to more functional economies, the UK being one.

If the euro crisis had not happened or at the very least had been solved within some reasonable timeframe then I doubt we would have had an EU referendum in the UK. The EU looked and still looks incompetent in its handling of the issue which in very large part lead to the rise in UKIP popularity which ultimately created the pressure for a referendum.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#128

Post by return0 »

pjc50 wrote: post #124
return0 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> underspecified, possibly unachievable "something else" I think it's pretty well outlined what is that "something else". The implementation is not there (obviously), but the API exists, for example anti-immigration, [edit]pro-protectionism etc. Most people dismiss it as non-existent though, due to liberal reflexes.

Being anti-immigration is protectionism, though. Especially for the services sector. The two things are in direct contradiction to one another. The specific motivation for objecting to immigration (other than straight racism) is "protecting jobs".

yep. sorry typo

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#129

Post by objectivistbrit »

mpeg wrote: post #76
objectivistbrit wrote: post #47

I'm pro-economic liberty and voted for Brexit. Every analysis like this has tunnel vision: yes, the free trade opened up by the EU brought prosperity to an entire continent. Had we been voting for the 1970s era EEC, I'd have gladly voted Remain. But in 40 years the EEC has evolved into the EU, with a constitution, a parliament, a president, a national anthem, a flag, supreme law-making powers and a currency. Maybe th…

> Maybe the populations of France, Spain, Italy et al will accept that they can't fund welfare states by borrowing in perpetuity and stop voting in radical left-wing governments. Spain has never had a left-wing government, let alone radical left. Since democracy, we have had 4 centre-right legislatures and 6 centre-left, last of which was in 2008, with the current election deadlock still resulting in a majority of ce…

Thanks for the correction. I was researching the different political parties of Eurozone countries yesterday and it's difficult keeping track of whether a particular 'People's Party' is on the left or right.

I overstated that point but there certainly seems to be a strong left-wing base in every centre-left coalition in Southern Europe. And the centre-right coalitions follow a pragmatic mix of nationalism, traditionalism and capitalism. I.e., neither side has a strong will to cut state spending. Liberalism seems to be more a Protestant northern Europe thing.

Re: How a Quest by Elites Is Driving ‘Brexit’ and Trump

#130

Post by guard-of-terra »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #32

I'm a little amazed at the tone of this article. People rent a home, and then exploit the democratic process in a beggar-thy-potential-neighbors strategy. They use things like rent control and other anti-migrant policies (e.g. anti-Google bus policies in SF, anti-Hijab laws in France) to enrich themselves at the expense of others. Because her wealthy uncles lost their job, and had a small drop in their standard of li…

"screw over a bunch of desperately poor people a world away"

We don't owe them very much, we don't have jurisdiction over them and we certainly can't help them all.

For any value of we.

Maybe it's better to create jobs "a world away"? If it's a genuine concern.

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