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Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

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Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the flip side of that is that talent not in the coddled identity class of the day will feel that they should find companies with actual important shit to focus on to work for.

I love the "too busy doing important things" argument for why nobody should spend any time thinking about diversity. Of course, deciding what is important in life is an entirely subjective matter. But just to aid in my understanding of this argument, I would be interested to hear some examples of which companies and activities constitute actual important shit.

Important things: producing a good or service that is valuable to some market and that supports the livelihoods of employees/stakeholders in an equitable way.

Not important things: disfavoring groups of people that it is currently stylish to consider as "oppressive", "problematic", or "triggering" in favor of other groups of people that are currently deemed to be "diverse", "oppressed", "modern".

Real life isn't handing out stickers to preschoolers.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#122
The goal of hiring diversity is to reach Proportional Representation; you want your workforce to resemble the demographics of the nation as a whole. If you accept that anyone, regardless of their genetic heritage, gender identity, sexual identity, skin color, etc. can do the job just as well as anyone else can, then you should be supportive of, or at least not oppose, efforts like these. If you don't think so (with regards to genetic heritage especially), there's really no discussion to be had, as that's a likely irreconcilable conflicting understanding of the science, especially at the individual level (intra-haplogroup potential ability swamps any supposed inter-haplogroup potential ability) or just plain, old-fashioned prejudice.

What are the benefits to PR? Two major ones:

- Countering structural biases in society. There has not historically been anything like a level playing field with regards to inherent attributes in this country. Many of those attributes cause people to get discriminated against, and this gets perpetuated across time. It's a "market" solution to a societal problem, which means that it can't magically counter much larger structural forces all by itself, but it can help.

- Producing better results. Many studies claim that diverse teams operate better, and potentially produce superior products and services. A major part of the reason is the introduction of diversity in perspectives, which can allow a company to understand different potential markets better and can make a company potentially more welcoming, which can improve hiring (i.e., a great candidate who might feel out of place in an environment with non-diverse demographics might decide to join if the demographics were more diverse. This can become a virtuous cycle.) Whether this is true or not, or how much it's true, is not that relevant. It certainly can't hurt.

There are valid criticisms of hiring diversity methods, but I'm not seeing many of them in the comments here:

- Can PR be achieved? Getting PR at a place with 10 employees is going to be very tough, so coming down on companies this small who can't do so should not be done, IMO. 100? Easier. 1000. Much easier. The larger the organization is, the more possible it becomes. So no, it's not always possible, and some perhaps well-intentioned activists beat up on companies they shouldn't, but that does not mean it should not be a goal that is pursued as a general principle for hiring.

- Do the people who get hired necessarily represent who those hiring them think they represent? Not always, no. If you're hiring a perfect rainbow coalition of identities, but all of them come from wealthy backgrounds or elite schools, for example, you may be getting less diversity than you think. It's not tokenism, but it's definitely not PR. Many Left criticisms of our current version elite liberal meritocratic culture center around this. The antidote is to include things like educational background, economic class/upbringing circumstances, etc. when considering a candidate vis a vis diverse hiring; that's what intersectionality is all about. You do not consider advantaging/disadvantaging attributes in isolation. Many companies have do a very poor job of the latter, but in this case, GH has explicitly said they are more open to non-traditionally educated candidates.

PR and hiring diversity is not going to fix all society's problems; for that, we need major reforms like free higher ed, federal, rather than local, funding of K-12 education, GBI, UHC, ending the drug war and a dozen other things. Can it help, especially by helping push American culture towards greater acceptance of diversity and pluralism? Yes, so companies should strive for it.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I kinda have the same thinking. Saying that "we have no Black/African-American (...)" seems way more racist that don't saying anything at all. People should get hired according their skills, not race/gender/etc. If a company is focused in hiring non-white males, aren't white males in disadvantage on recruitment processes?

I think not talking about race is more damaging than talking about race in many contexts. I also think that a decrease in institutional privilege (white male, in this case) is not discriminatory. I also don't think "quotas" are a good solution, e.g., "Hire one more Mexican woman and we're good!" But acknowledging some statistical realities and taking a close look at what got you there isn't a bad thing.

"A decrease in institutional privilege"? What are you people smoking?

The choices you make affect real _people_--not institutions; hiring someone over someone else based on some relatively arbitrary superficial trait--thinking that you know that person and what they've lived through--has serious effects on that individual--not an institution. But you choose to make those choices, because you perpetually believe you know things that you do not.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#124
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's also possible that the reason that some groups are underrepresented because is because they don't like their prospects (say, in term of a welcoming work environment). Causality works both up and down the pipeline; not just up.

It's possible, but you'd have to prove it, and I think that's an uphill battle. Further, that's not what the previous poster was saying, and not what I was addressing. They said that there's a high degree of likelihood that not reflecting the population at large is the result of bias. That, as I said, is not likely to be true.

> That, as I said, is not likely to be true.

I think it's by far the likeliest explanation given everything we know of human societies and human history (i.e, as a general rule, almost everything is fluid). Moreover, it's the safest: if, as a result of such under-representations, certain groups have less power in society, it's unreasonable not to try to fix it. If people get sick and you don't know if the disease is curable or not, the far safer (and more ethical) assumption is that it is. Both assumptions are not symmetrical.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#125

This blog post reads to me like the Pokemon motto "Gotta Catch 'Em All". Being non-american (I'm from a South American country) it is hard for me to understand the importance giving to these things associated to racism and sexism. The United States is the only place I have seen where people invest a considerable amount of time and resources just to put people from minor groups or specific genders in pedestals just to…

I have never heard a good argument explaining how affirmative action is good for a company or society outside of college.

I personally question the legitimacy / usefulness of affirmative action, but the best argument in support of it which I have heard is that people bound their career prospects based on the individuals they observe to be occupying those roles in society. For example, if a person is female and all the software developers they see are male, perhaps they believe that software development is inherently a male job and not for them. This could then lead to a negative feedback loop where females are afraid to make the first step into the industry because no one has done it before them, and the industry misses out on people who could turn out to be very qualified workers. Affirmative seeks to break this loop.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#126
post #88
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The United States is the only place I have seen where people invest a considerable amount of time and resources just to put people from minor groups or specific genders in pedestals just to please other people. It's not "just to please other people"; it's to attempt to counteract the institutionalized discrimination against minorities that exists throughout the country. Studies have shown[1] that, for example, peop…

Given the widespread use of pro-black affirmative-action (practiced by GitHub, Apple, Google, Facebook, and Microsoft; nearly every major university; many government contractors; and probably the majority of F500 companies), isn't it only logical to view black resumes with more suspicion? Objectively, blacks need to display lower competency in relevant skills to achieve identical resumes as whites. On a side note, af…

> On a side note, affirmative action policies ultimately help middle-class blacks at the expense of lower-class whites. The upper-class whites who push for affirmative action are not affected by it, and neither are their children.

Data to back that up?

> isn't it only logical to view black resumes with more suspicion? Objectively, blacks need to display lower competency in relevant skills to achieve identical resumes as whites.

No, that's against the law (in the US).

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#127
I dont want to live or work in a society where employees at every company reflect the demographics of that society, where everyone gets equal pay, feels less and less like diversity and more and more about conformity. Its the road to socialism, if all of this diversity was valuable the market will reward companies accordingly.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your organization's demographics don't match the demographics of the broader population of qualified candidates, there's a good chance it's because you're biased (intentionally or not) in your recruiting or evaluation. In that sense, "focusing on the pool of applicants and making sure everyone gets a fair shake" are pretty much exactly what diversity efforts are about.

>there's a good chance it's because you're biased (intentionally or not) in your recruiting or evaluation. I don't think this is necessarily the case. Or even likely the case. For example, we know that the number of blacks, latinos, and women studying CS, etc., is much lower than their proportion in the population. It follows that even the most equitable tech company is unlikely to have demographics which match the p…

I tried to be careful in my phrasing, which is why I said "broader population of qualified candidates" and not "population at large" or "general population", and "good chance" instead of "certainty", because as you point out there are unfortunately systemic factors outside of your immediate short-term control that will affect the numbers.

But I think a lot of people/companies use this as an excuse to just not even try, and that doesn't make sense. Even if a group's share of qualified candidates is smaller than its share of the general population, that share certainly isn't zero, and once your team reaches a certain size its not hard to check the math and see if your process is producing results in bounds of reasonable estimates. Very frequently it isn't, and that can point to hidden or explicit biases that you can work to remove from your process.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#129

The goal of hiring diversity is to reach Proportional Representation; you want your workforce to resemble the demographics of the nation as a whole. If you accept that anyone, regardless of their genetic heritage, gender identity, sexual identity, skin color, etc. can do the job just as well as anyone else can, then you should be supportive of, or at least not oppose, efforts like these. If you don't think so (with r…

>The goal of hiring diversity is to reach Proportional Representation; you want your workforce to resemble the demographics of the nation as a whole.

What about when that is reached, or is nearly reached? What's the medium term end goal? Long term end goal? I think here is where people disagree even more than the means to get there.

>Whether this is true or not, or how much it's true, is not that relevant. It certainly can't hurt.

It can lead to distrust, skepticism, disrespect, worse communication. All sorts of negative things.

If we include ideology in the general diversity conversation, and class, rather than primarily gender and race, I'd respect the intention much more.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#130
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slightly less comfortable for the most-privileged people on earth; probably more comfortable for everyone else. cf. Every other American industry's initial foray into diversity.

Oh, it's fine that it's racist, because I as a white male have it so good? Seems odd to me mate, there are things that being white certainly doesn't buy, it's not a ticket to middle-class. Being cis doesn't make me any more worse at my job than being gay would, don't judge me on that merit it's bullshit. FWIW I grew up incredibly poor and my "advantage" in IT was that people don't care about your background. If I had…

> Seems odd to me mate, there are things that being white certainly doesn't buy, it's not a ticket to middle-class.

Perhaps not.

But there are things that being white does grant you:

1. Police won't hassle you for driving a nice car.

2. Police won't hassle you for walking in a nice neighborhood.

3. People won't report you as "suspicious looking" for wearing a hoodie and walking in a neighborhood.

4. Police won't be as likely to use force to resolve a situation.

5. People will be less likely to have negative assumptions about your career, your intelligence, and your capabilities.

//

Being white is not a ticket to success, but it's not a hindrance either. That's the difference.

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