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TTIP Leaks

ttip-leaks.org

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Re: TTIP Leaks

#121

Post by wmeredith »

tdkl wrote: post #37
tommyman wrote: post #9

So business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in the US side of negotiations (far more than any public interest groups). Then on the EU side, business groups and lobbyists for companies like IBM, Apple, Google et al. are deeply involved in negotiations to the detriment of all public groups. So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on ho…

The corporations have hijacked the US government years ago it was always only the matter of time that they'll spread to EU. What saddens me more is that the cucked EU will let them, forgetting all the achievements this continent has to offer.

Cucked?

Re: TTIP Leaks

#122

Post by ekianjo »

switch007 wrote: post #115
JPKab wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So this is really lots of big US companies negotiating with themselves on how to screw over Europe." Let me change this for you to something more accurate: So this is really lots of big multinational corporations negotiating with themselves on how to screw over working people throughout the world. When you start tuning this into "US companies screwing over Europe", you play right into their hands. As if there aren't…

Every internal combustion engine in history has and will spew poison in to the air. You just thought it was slightly less than it actually was.

Ever considered that internal combustion engines actually also saved lives (and made life possible in places where it was not) ? Let's not paint the world black and white.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#123

Post by maxerickson »

shimon_e wrote: post #70
maxerickson wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of the US does China own?

1.2 trillion Edit: I am answering a simple question. I am not offering any interpretation or comments. So I don't know why commentators are trying to drag me into a debate.

I don't see that as an answer to the question I asked. I did not ask how much US government debt was held by China.

If that is all OP meant, I would ask them why they think China owning US bonds is particularly meaningful for the US.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#124

Post by gech »

vasilipupkin wrote: post #109
maxxxxx wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the real problem. The term "economy" has been captured by big corporations. When I grew up in Germany the economy was supposed to be a benefit to all participants and a balance had to be achieved. Now the economy is supposed to be fine as long as big business is happy. The regular citizen doesn't count anymore. TTIP is just the final expression of this. Whatever I hear only lobbyists have been involved. No oth…

I'd like to point out that German economy and by extension, regular Germans, heavily depend on exports to the US. So, reducing frictions in trade between US and Europe should make regular Germans better off not worse off. How do you suppose German economy works ?

" should make regular Germans better off "

Please define a metric that we can use to establish this.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#125

Post by kspaans »

RobertoG wrote: post #73
jcfrei wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is with all the tinfoil hat conspiracies in here? Can we please resume to a rational discussion?

OK, let's go to the facts: 1. A treaty is negotiated between the two major markets in the world. 2. We know that when this kind of treaties are passed is almost impossible to go back. 3. We know that the most important input to those treaties come from corporations. 4. The conversations happen in secret. 5. The democratic representatives are not allowed to read the treaty except in a hurry and without legal help. 6.…

> 4. The conversations happen in secret.

Not commenting on any other aspects of TTIP, but they happen in secret for a reason.[0][1][2] Most trade negotiations are secret too, and if the whole process was public there would be too much bikeshedding and pressure on the negotiators.

EDIT: forgot to include a TL;DR summary of why they are secret. Fixed NPR link

0 - http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/06/26/417851577/episo...

1 - http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2015/08/random-t...

2 - http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2015/08/random-t...

Re: TTIP Leaks

#126

Post by pjc50 »

tajen wrote: post #80
lumberjack wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm now wondering is, can the WTO bully US and EU states in the way it can bully third world countries? What if renegade states across both sides of the Atlantic decided to disregard the treaty and the fines that will follow immediately? What will the WTO do then? Sanction them?

I need help in argumenting: What's the difference between the EU-US WTO agreements and the TTIP, apart from the former being from the XXth century. Aren't we happier and wealthier since the WTO exists? Please don't tell me about how a treaty should be voted on by the people, because I already agree about this part.

The content is different? Especially with regards to the investor-state dispute settlement system, which currently does not apply to the EU.

( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investor-state_dispute_settlem... )

Re: TTIP Leaks

#127

Post by lumberjack »

tajen wrote: post #80
lumberjack wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm now wondering is, can the WTO bully US and EU states in the way it can bully third world countries? What if renegade states across both sides of the Atlantic decided to disregard the treaty and the fines that will follow immediately? What will the WTO do then? Sanction them?

I need help in argumenting: What's the difference between the EU-US WTO agreements and the TTIP, apart from the former being from the XXth century. Aren't we happier and wealthier since the WTO exists? Please don't tell me about how a treaty should be voted on by the people, because I already agree about this part.

>Aren't we happier and wealthier since the WTO exists?

Not at all. The only time the WTO interacted with my native country it was to "gently" push for privitisation of state assets all of which have turned out to be disastrous deals for our country. Not even the economic liberals I know think highly of the WTO.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#128

Post by cmelbye »

ekianjo wrote: post #122
switch007 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every internal combustion engine in history has and will spew poison in to the air. You just thought it was slightly less than it actually was.

Ever considered that internal combustion engines actually also saved lives (and made life possible in places where it was not) ? Let's not paint the world black and white.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with diesel fuel vs. others, which was the point of the previous two comments.

Re: TTIP Leaks

#129

Post by lumberjack »

RobertoG wrote: post #71
lumberjack wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm now wondering is, can the WTO bully US and EU states in the way it can bully third world countries? What if renegade states across both sides of the Atlantic decided to disregard the treaty and the fines that will follow immediately? What will the WTO do then? Sanction them?

This is not how it works. The US and the EU use the WTO for bullying others. Those treaties are a way of creating a legal framework that can't be altered by national governments. This is not happening against the governments but it's done by the governments to their populations. This is not US against EU but corporations against people. The idea is to be sure that national governments can't vote against the interest…

I understand that completely. I was thinking, if by some miracle a populist was elected and he went renegade, would they actually dare sanction a western state?

Re: TTIP Leaks

#130

Post by jessup »

"The original text has been typed again and obvious spelling and grammar errors, possibly put there deliberately as markers to identify the origin in case of a leak, have been removed. Other apparent textual or formatting-related markers were removed as well. None of these adjustments have altered the content of the text in any way."

This statement is leading me to rethink my conception of how steganography might be applied In The Real World.

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