Live data from Hacker News

How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

washingtonpost.com

121–130 of 178 posts

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#121
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the argument, but is that what actually happened here? My understanding is that the one thing the defense doesn't have is the whole justification for entering the defendant's personal space in the first place. I could be misreading!

It sure looks like you are. "Gartenlaub wants to see the warrant in his case so he can challenge it as based on false information and therefore invalid." According to the article the warrant itself and the filings in support of it are unavailable to the defense. That is essential to making arguments on the legality of the warrant in the first place, the scope of the evidence gathered to the warrant, and factual argum…

Sorry, I think I'm just being imprecise.

I understand the nature of his argument: he'd like to challenge the warrant to get the CP evidence excluded. He can't, because the warrant is secret; his CP criminal trial judge validated it, but in a normal case, he'd have the chance to evaluate himself.

What I perceived you to have been claiming was that the defendant additionally doesn't know the actual provenance of the evidence. Which computer did it come from? How does he know the FBI didn't simply make it up?

It's that latter claim that I'm pushing back on.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#122
post #116
post #55

If, during the entire history of the USA, some FBI agents had never been proven to be corrupt, if judges had never been proven to be corrupt, if evidence had never been proved to be planted by authorities, then maybe, just maybe this would be justified. In the real world, however, this is very, very scary and I consider myself lucky I am not subject to this travesty. Since there does not appear to be any proof that h…

My view of having a mens rea requirement with child porn statues are derided with comments like: "Congratulations, you're now on an FBI watch list." ( (s)he did agree with me) Yet if there is no guilty mind, there should be no crime. Frankly possession of CP shouldn't be a crime at all, because it is proof of a crime. Snuff videos aren't illegal. Rape videos (of 18+) aren't illegal. Just horrible videos are that: hor…

While you do have a point, I don't think there is a single first-world country where it is legal. That means that everyone in power, everywhere, agrees on this at least to some degree, meaning that it probably won't change any time soon.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure looks like you are. "Gartenlaub wants to see the warrant in his case so he can challenge it as based on false information and therefore invalid." According to the article the warrant itself and the filings in support of it are unavailable to the defense. That is essential to making arguments on the legality of the warrant in the first place, the scope of the evidence gathered to the warrant, and factual argum…

Sorry, I think I'm just being imprecise. I understand the nature of his argument: he'd like to challenge the warrant to get the CP evidence excluded. He can't, because the warrant is secret; his CP criminal trial judge validated it, but in a normal case, he'd have the chance to evaluate himself. What I perceived you to have been claiming was that the defendant additionally doesn't know the actual provenance of the ev…

The warrant establishes the provenance, it's the whole point!

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I think I'm just being imprecise. I understand the nature of his argument: he'd like to challenge the warrant to get the CP evidence excluded. He can't, because the warrant is secret; his CP criminal trial judge validated it, but in a normal case, he'd have the chance to evaluate himself. What I perceived you to have been claiming was that the defendant additionally doesn't know the actual provenance of the ev…

The warrant establishes the provenance, it's the whole point!

I feel like we're about to argue about the meaning of the word "provenance". I meant it as "where the evidence came from". You mean it as "the legal authority required to collect it". Both uses are valid, but I meant the former.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet a jury convicted him. This kind of thing is far beyond the comprehension of the common juror. Knowing what I know about computer security and how EASY it is to plant digital evidence without leaving a trace, even from thousands of miles away, I'd have to see video evidence of the defendant downloading the material as it happens before rendering such a verdict, especially if it's going to mean decades in priso…

"Knowing what I know about computer security and how EASY it is to plant digital evidence without leaving a trace." This right here is the conversation which needs to happen around this particular topic. In the security community the topic of forensic discovery of child porn tends to get a hand-wave because child porn. It's there so someone must be guilty. The fact is, it is trivial to plant such evidence on anyone's…

This is utterly terrifying. What are some common steps to prevent this kind of "invisible" injection of images. If you're on private WiFi are you good to go? Any common tips to stay secure?

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#126
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Jail time for storing a pattern of bits? I will stand up and say that's unjustified. The ridiculous basis of the concept is exactly what causes this screwed up regime with no possible discernment between the crime and being framed for the crime. I'm not going to come down on either side of child porn, but there are plenty of bit patterns where possessing them should result in jail time. For example: Defense secrets…

> there are plenty of bit patterns where possessing them should result in jail time. For example: ... novel ways to enrich fissile materials.[1] And yet you just pasted a link to a high level overview. I don't see an explicit governmental condonement of the contents of that link - perhaps the edit history contains something "over the line", and you should go turn yourself in? You still haven't made a case for why pos…

> I don't see an explicit governmental condonement of the contents of that link.

> You still haven't made a case for why possessing such information should be a bona fide crime (as opposed to being evidence of a real crime). You've merely asserted it should be illegal, with only scary innuendo to back it up.

SILEX makes it possible to enrich uranium in secret for mere millions of dollars. It was privately discovered, but the process was classified by the government. If the exact details spread, it could be a global catastrophe. I'm totally fine with this information being restricted, as the harm of censorship is outweighed by the risk of nuclear proliferation. The US government seems to agree.

> So where are these trolls now, given they can act with impunity through TOR?

They don't post links to child porn because such things aren't hosted on the open web. Right now, the worst things trolls can link to are disgusting or gory images. If the law was different, they could link to worse things.

> The problem isn't being framed, it's the ridiculousness of strict-liability non-mens-rea possession, especially of something that can be so easily obtained.

There are plenty of physical goods that meet the same criteria and are just as illegal. I think only a borderline anarchist would disagree with many of those laws. For example: Thanks to 3D printing, it is very easy to obtain a full-auto sear for an AR-15. Such a piece of metal is –by itself– completely harmless. It can't do anything dangerous unless it's installed into a compatible rifle. Yet mere possession of an unlicensed full-auto sear will get you up to 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine.

That's right: Possession of a tiny piece of metal is the difference between a completely legal existence and a decade in prison. And that has been the case in the US since 1934. When put that way, it may seem unfair. But that tiny piece of metal could easily be used to cause immense harm, and it has no other use. Just like some data.

Now, if you're willing to bite the bullet and say that possession of full-auto sears should be legal, I'm fine with that. I'll disagree, but I'll admire your consistency. On the other hand: If you don't think such devices should be legal to possess, then I think your support for possession of arbitrary digital goods is rather hypocritical.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Knowing what I know about computer security and how EASY it is to plant digital evidence without leaving a trace." This right here is the conversation which needs to happen around this particular topic. In the security community the topic of forensic discovery of child porn tends to get a hand-wave because child porn. It's there so someone must be guilty. The fact is, it is trivial to plant such evidence on anyone's…

This is utterly terrifying. What are some common steps to prevent this kind of "invisible" injection of images. If you're on private WiFi are you good to go? Any common tips to stay secure?

Don't use insecure WiFi networks, or if you do, use a VPN. That prevents you from getting these images injected by people sitting near you on the same network.

And don't visit web sites controlled by people who would do this, or linking to ad networks controlled by people who would do this. That's a little more out of your hands...

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#128
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are plenty of bit patterns where possessing them should result in jail time. For example: ... novel ways to enrich fissile materials.[1] And yet you just pasted a link to a high level overview. I don't see an explicit governmental condonement of the contents of that link - perhaps the edit history contains something "over the line", and you should go turn yourself in? You still haven't made a case for why pos…

> I don't see an explicit governmental condonement of the contents of that link. > You still haven't made a case for why possessing such information should be a bona fide crime (as opposed to being evidence of a real crime). You've merely asserted it should be illegal, with only scary innuendo to back it up. SILEX makes it possible to enrich uranium in secret for mere millions of dollars. It was privately discovered,…

> If the exact details spread, it could be a global catastrophe. I'm totally fine with this information being restricted

And yet such criminalization won't stop someone actually determined to use it. If your security relies on preventing the spread of readily-available information, you've already lost. Your argument only seems practical for this situation because the only entities in possession of said information are already doing the work to keep it secret.

> Right now, the worst things trolls can link to are disgusting or gory images

Or uh, illegal images they upload themselves (obfuscated enough to get around whatever secret programmatic filters the hosting sites have been forced to implement via "consent" decree), or non-linked data: urls.

> Yet mere possession of an unlicensed full-auto sear will get you up to 10 years in prison

Which obviously conflicts with the 2nd amendment, itself created with foresight of hysterical attempts to ban weapons. There's no constitutional amendment spelling out the right to own hammers, not because it isn't a natural right, but because the founders didn't envision a scenario of widespread hammer ownership being criminalized by a corrupt government (and hammers subsequently being needed to violently overthrow said government).

I'm sure you can find many similar examples of possession being criminalized - it's the dumbest, most simplistic way to go after "bad people" (base tribalism) instead of the harder route of policing and prosecuting actual bad behavior (rule of law). That its application is a foregone conclusion merely shows how totalitarian our society has become.

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#129
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How hard would it be to do a demo for jurors in a courtroom? Simple proof-of-concept getting all of them to connect to a "wifi" network which is a tethered device owned by the lawyer, have them navigate to a regular website, and then inject images for the 2nd go-around to introduce reasonable doubt?

Trivial. The way to do this in a courtroom is to demonstrate it to the judge and jury by having a reputable forensics expert certify a computer is free from kitty pictures. Then have the judge connect that computer to a "Free WiFi" network to be used for the demo and have them go anywhere. Just start randomly browsing the Internet. Meanwhile, use an intercepting proxy like The Burp Suite, Fiddler 2, or Charles operat…

> 1x1 sized images of kittens playing with yarn

Here's a 1x1 image of this you can use. The yarn is actually very small, clear, monofilament fishing line, but I think it's a nice picture:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blank.gif

Re: How a federal spy case turned into a child pornography prosecution

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Knowing what I know about computer security and how EASY it is to plant digital evidence without leaving a trace." This right here is the conversation which needs to happen around this particular topic. In the security community the topic of forensic discovery of child porn tends to get a hand-wave because child porn. It's there so someone must be guilty. The fact is, it is trivial to plant such evidence on anyone's…

This is utterly terrifying. What are some common steps to prevent this kind of "invisible" injection of images. If you're on private WiFi are you good to go? Any common tips to stay secure?

You can tell your browser to not download images: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/981640

This would disable all images, but that's what you want, because you can never tell if a site you're going to has been compromised and what content they're going to serve up until you've already downloaded it.

This doesn't completely solve the problem though, you'd also need to make sure you don't have Flash or Java, and disable SVG and CSS now that I think about it... plus an encoded text of an illegal image is still probably illegal, even if it's text-encoded, so, uhh... I don't know, it depends how paranoid you want to be.

If someone wanted to force you to have illegal data on your machine, there's almost certainly a way to make it happen if you're connected to the internet in any way. Hell, even gmail shows embedded images by default... and even if you didn't open the email containing the illegal content, you still have it in your inbox, so there's that...

Post reply on HN