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Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

nytimes.com

121–130 of 247 posts

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#121
post #105
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany Holocaust denial is illegal and you can get imprisoned for it. In Turkey it is required to deny the Armenian Genocide where the Turks killed a million or so Armenians, an act the word genocide was invented to describe. In Turkey you can get imprisoned for saying it happened. That's a fairly major incompatibility to deal with.

you can deny holocaust in many european countries...

But you can't get arrested for saying it happened in any European countries.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#122
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can deny holocaust in many european countries...

Those countries do not have a state-enforced opposition to historical facts.

yes we all know history is hard science. not talking about the genocides here.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#123
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press. He does know that that won't ever happen because he wanted. But most the voters of his party will be excited to see him shouting at the Germany, the US, etc. This is not that obvious to the opposition. I came to know some supporters only recently, and boy, they have arousals when the guy acts like this. I'm a Turkish citizen BTW. And see, criticism of Erdogan…

> Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press It hurts your country's ability to leverage foreign minds when you begin to censor the outside world. Plus, with the internet, censorship becomes really impractical. China and North Korea don't do this completely successfully and they spend a lot of effort to keep their citizens on some form of lock down. So not only do you end up missing out on the collecti…

Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure. Because that's what he does. Since when he started his political career, even before the AKP days, he and his family prospered to an incredible level. That's all the care, and the support comes from the businessmen trying to get some benefit out of the business. So the case of Turkey is the case of a group that fruits the state's resources for enrichment of theirs, and nobody cares if Turkey remains respectable or not. It's business.

> The only time speech should be regulated is when it incites violence [...]

Speech should not be regulated in any ways, or we will have millions of who decides questions. A picture of Mohammad is annoying to each and every muslim, because the religion expressly forbids the likeness of the holy figures. Freedom of speech does not mean irresponsible and banale flow of whatever one thinks. This does not in any way justify the violence, but does not help either. Have you seen the latest cover of Hebdo, Papa où t'es? That's within freedom of speech too, but freedom of speech must not mean that one can be reckless, inconsiderate and demeaning. It is possible to criticise, or even attack in a civil, graceful way. In the end, though, this should be left to the authors will, to decide whether or not it is moral to say what he says. Because when state is involved the slightest, it can be involved more. Who decides what incites violence?

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#124
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really weird to think of you as an expat, because we are used to thinking of the turkish in ways that are improper. Most expats are expats because the grass was greener where they went. Why are some of us expats while others are merely "immigrants"? Just using that word makes it seem filthy for people from the middle east to come to europe. How are they different from europeans leaving their countries behind? La…

The difference between an 'expat' and an 'immigrant' is that an expat made their choice from a position of strength and an immigrant made their choice from a position of weakness. That's really all there is to it, everything else is exactly the same. Though usually people from wealthy countries would not like to be known as 'immigrants', they are expats, of course.

It's all relative - I've moved to the US from NL (relatively wealthy I'd say) and I have never considered myself an expat. I'm an immigrant.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#125
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press. He does know that that won't ever happen because he wanted. But most the voters of his party will be excited to see him shouting at the Germany, the US, etc. This is not that obvious to the opposition. I came to know some supporters only recently, and boy, they have arousals when the guy acts like this. I'm a Turkish citizen BTW. And see, criticism of Erdogan…

A preview of what's in store if the U.S. somehow manages to elect Trump.

Unlike pissant, shitholes like the UK, France, or Canada we have a first amendment.

Obama and Trump can suck my dick.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#126
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "We should count ourselves lucky Turkey didn't join the EU in 1995-2008. I'd rather have an authoritarian Turkey outside of the EU than inside." On the other hand wouldn't they be subject to certain laws to prevent or reduce the authoritarianism if they were part of the EU?

The EU was designed with lots of hops that a country had to jump threw but because for political (even idiological reason) those things always gets ignored if they are in the way of the larger planes. Greece for example should never ever have been able to join the EU given the rules that existed and we can see how that turned out. The EU simply has very little oversight of internal politcs of countries and because th…

The EU is not the eurozone. Greece entered the EEC in 1981. Get your facts straight and please spell check.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#128
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press. He does know that that won't ever happen because he wanted. But most the voters of his party will be excited to see him shouting at the Germany, the US, etc. This is not that obvious to the opposition. I came to know some supporters only recently, and boy, they have arousals when the guy acts like this. I'm a Turkish citizen BTW. And see, criticism of Erdogan…

A preview of what's in store if the U.S. somehow manages to elect Trump.

Trump is primarily playing off a base of xenophobia and isolationism, for which Americans have always had a certain luxury due to our geographic isolation from the rest of the world. For our one neighbor to the South, he wants to build a wall. I see nothing that would indicate a stifling of the press, individual rights to free expression and assembly, rigged elections, and all the other problems facing Turkey today.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#129
post #5

As a german I really have to wonder what's wrong with our government if we continue to cozy up to Erdogan's turkey. I really don't think having turkey as a migration buffer is worth paying the price of making the european union look like a club you can buy your way into regardless of ethics. What's the use of values if we're starting to ignore them so easily?

It just goes to show that politics is really really hard. You never get to hear about the decisions that are easy. If it's reported in the media, it's almost by definition an issue with multiple viable options (or, in this case, only bad choices). Having seen a bit of German politics from the inside, I can assure you that everyone grapples with choices like this. I've witnessed ministers of finance changing their opi…

A major reason is that Turkey has invaded and occupied part of an EU member (Cyprus). Granted, this issue may be solved soon, but many EU politicians hide behind issues like this to avoid stating the major issue: avoiding mass influx of turkish citizens to EU countries. Most european countries are not ready for this (Turkey has population similar to germany) and turkey has large young population.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#130
post #60
post #35

These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early 1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor can question him for his unconstitu…

A few comments on your statement.. - Erdogan's intolerance for satire or criticism is very disturbing indeed, but the law that is used in these cases was introduced in 2005, during Ahmet Necdet Sezer's presidency (TCK 299), being an expert in constitutional law, he should have vetoed it. Erdogan knows that media eroded his predecessors power,(e.g. Turgut Ozal) and unlike them, he will do anything to not allow that fo…

    In the end, it still takes a single election to take him and his party down, 
    I have faith in Turkish people, 
    they did it before to others, they will do it to him as well.
But didn't this just happen? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_general_election,_June... )
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