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London vs San Francisco – back and forth

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Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#121

Post by lmm »

dboreham wrote: post #67
roymurdock wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for this well-placed gem of British humour. Although it begets the question - with the excellent bus and tube system, why drive?

London buses are really not something you want to try to use. I spent a couple of years working in Chelsea, which was deliberately omitted from the tube system (the rich inhabitants did not want the great unwashed to have an easy way to get there, I suspect). So walking or bus, or if you had more money than I had at the time, taxi was the only option. Walking was far faster than any bus.

Bikes are faster for those circumstances, though obv. have their downside.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#122

Post by lmm »

onion2k wrote: post #64
lgieron wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Live somewhere else. There is a catch though - for programmers, London is by far the best paying city in Europe (except maybe Swiss cities).

In terms of gross salary, absolutely. In terms of net earnings after paying for the cost of living in London, probably not. I'm quite sure I could double or even triple my salary by moving to London, but my quality of life would very likely go down. For a start, where I live I can afford to buy a house. On a multiple of my income in London I don't think I could do that. I see no value in earning more just to pass the…

Remember that your savings are measured in absolute terms. If outside London I'd earn x and spend 25% of it on housing and in London I earn 2x and spend 50% of it on housing, I'm still earning more non-housing money in London. And in the case of paying a mortgage then at the end of it all you sell the house, so the extra expenditure isn't "lost".

Quality of life comes down to personal preference. I'm not sure there's anywhere else I could live (at least without having to learn another language) and not feel any need to own or use a car, the pub theatre scene is probably the best in the world (likewise the museum collections), a huge range of musical performances, and it's the best place to find people for specialised hobbies (netrunner in my case, again literally the best place in the world for it in terms of the community size). Of course other places have their own selling points, but London has a lot going for it if you like that sort of thing.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#123

Post by osullivj »

lmm wrote: post #122
onion2k wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of gross salary, absolutely. In terms of net earnings after paying for the cost of living in London, probably not. I'm quite sure I could double or even triple my salary by moving to London, but my quality of life would very likely go down. For a start, where I live I can afford to buy a house. On a multiple of my income in London I don't think I could do that. I see no value in earning more just to pass the…

Remember that your savings are measured in absolute terms. If outside London I'd earn x and spend 25% of it on housing and in London I earn 2x and spend 50% of it on housing, I'm still earning more non-housing money in London. And in the case of paying a mortgage then at the end of it all you sell the house, so the extra expenditure isn't "lost". Quality of life comes down to personal preference. I'm not sure there's…

I lived in London for 12 years, and earned good money working in banking. I loved it for all the reasons you spelled out. But then the financial crisis happened, the banks started firing people, we got burgled three times in one year, and I got mugged at knifepoint. We moved out to the countryside where our kids could go to good state schools and found that they stopped having asthma attacks. I earn less money, but I'm much less stressed.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#124

Post by lmm »

osullivj wrote: post #123
lmm wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember that your savings are measured in absolute terms. If outside London I'd earn x and spend 25% of it on housing and in London I earn 2x and spend 50% of it on housing, I'm still earning more non-housing money in London. And in the case of paying a mortgage then at the end of it all you sell the house, so the extra expenditure isn't "lost". Quality of life comes down to personal preference. I'm not sure there's…

I lived in London for 12 years, and earned good money working in banking. I loved it for all the reasons you spelled out. But then the financial crisis happened, the banks started firing people, we got burgled three times in one year, and I got mugged at knifepoint. We moved out to the countryside where our kids could go to good state schools and found that they stopped having asthma attacks. I earn less money, but I…

It's worth saying that despite what one hears in the media, both burglary and knife crime are continuously falling.

But sure. I think age, kids and general lifestyle make a lot of difference; for a lot of people London delivers more of what you want when you're young, but the countryside is better as you grow older and your priorities change.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#125

Post by s3nnyy »

hollerith wrote: post #119
s3nnyy wrote: post #52

A tech job in Europe does not mean Berlin or London. Zurich has the ETH university and the biggest Google office outside the US. It is a great place to live and is the only place where net-salaries are on par with the Bay Area. Salaries are in the range of 7000 - 10.000 CHF / month after taxes and apartments can be way cheaper than in San Francisco. Zurich is expensive but als tiny. Almost everyone lives "in the subu…

Can an American citizen without a college degree and without a million dollars in savings gain the right to live in Switzerland permanently ("permanent residency") if he can get a job there?

If you do not hold a Swiss / EU-passport, it is hard. A Swiss company can get you a work permit, if they can prove to the authorities that no other suitable candidate could be found in Switzerland / in the EU. This can be done if the company really wants you.

So unless you are an expert in some field AND a company really knows you, the chances are unfortunately low. :(

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#126

Post by lmm »

cylinder wrote: post #112
kinnth wrote: post #38

I currently live in London and have never lived in SF but have travelled every year for GDC (games developer conf) for 1 week a year. I tend to agree with the author. The place is lovely, it's almost like a heaven on earth with almost all ameneties, temperatures and people within a 3h driving time from SF, but for some reason London with it's grey grimey and dirty history has more appeal. Perhaps it's the fact that y…

What's the fascination with bars? I'd much rather be atop a hill with a view of the ocean and clear sunny skies over me than sitting in a dark room filled with drunks that looks like all the other dark rooms filled with drunks around the city.

On a sunny Sunday afternoon sure - and there's a great park culture in London under those circumstances. But after work, in bad weather and/or winter? I want a room, a "third place" for socializing (and I want alcohol available there, because I'm bad at socializing without it). Americans tend to call such places bars (as a Brit I wouldn't generally think of them as that). They're certainly not all dark rooms that look alike.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#127

Post by lmm »

patforna wrote: post #120

I don't think there's an objectively best place to live. Some people like bars while others like mountains. Some like crowds while others like solitude, etc. And that's totally cool, because we're all different. I've lived 1 year in CA, 2 years in Sydney, 9 years in London and just moved back to Switzerland (where I'm from) a few days ago. All the places I've lived in had their nice and not so nice sides. Guess that,…

Yes and no. Different places are better for different things, but some places do combine a lot of positive factors, and some places do combine a lot of negative factors; I suspect there really are pairs of cities where you can say that X is just better than Y for most reasonable criteria.

Even if you don't believe that, many people on this site have the choice between London and San Francisco, so it's well worth exploring the differences between them here.

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#128

Post by lmm »

oesmith wrote: post #98
DrNuke wrote: post #65

London? Manchester is equally viable for business, Bristol has better quality of life and Edinburgh is top for arts. Each for 1/3 - 1/2 of the cost. Even cheaper is Birmingham, and strategically located in the West Midlands. Who needs the rat race in London if you work with computers?

I'm looking forward to Google opening an office in Bristol. Until then, I'm stuck on a daily commute from Bath to London. The commute sucks, but I couldn't stand living in London (nor SF or the bay for that matter).

Google's offices at Victoria? I can understand wanting to live outside London, but surely there are optinos that would at give you a shorter commute - Caterham? Epsom? Dorking? Sevenoaks? Brighton even?

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#129

Post by rawTruthHurts »

dipthegeezer wrote: post #86
rawTruthHurts wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"with the excellent bus and tube system" Let's just say "reasonably good"

I'd say it was very good compared to just about any country that is not in North Europe. And I really don't have an issue with busses anymore in London. TFL have a fantastic API which tells you when the bus you want is arriving at a stop amoungst many other things.

Are you ok with UK currency not being accepted on buses?

Re: London vs San Francisco – back and forth

#130

Post by bjfletcher »

rawTruthHurts wrote: post #129
dipthegeezer wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say it was very good compared to just about any country that is not in North Europe. And I really don't have an issue with busses anymore in London. TFL have a fantastic API which tells you when the bus you want is arriving at a stop amoungst many other things.

Are you ok with UK currency not being accepted on buses?

I like buses that move fast, that means optimising the time it takes for people to get on and off. That is especially so in London where buses stop every 200 yards or so and at each stop there are people getting on and off - at some popular stops there can be 30 people getting on and off.

Riders using cash slow the bus down considerably. Do you have suggestions on how to make it as fast as just tapping your Apple Watch or Oyster card on the yellow pad? :-)

You can still be anonymous using an Oyster card that's pre-loaded with cash.

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