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High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

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Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#121

Post by matthewcford »

dba7dba wrote: post #108
fweespeech wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been on the hiring side as a manager in a number of companies, and I've NEVER seen a situation where a candidate was so uniquely awesome that the company was willing to make an offer drastically larger than their normal range for that role. A bit more? Sure. Some more stock or something? Often. But not, say, 50% more salary than anyone else at that level is getting. Fyi, at $DayJob we have one guy at my level…

From my experience at small medium startups, some dev gets higher pay because he/she is attractive and socially well adjusted and not nerdy. Not necessarily better coder.

> socially well adjusted

Don't underestimate this. Being a better code doesn't make you a better employee.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#122

Post by geodel »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #70

I expect there is more than one factor at work here. I've known folks who "grew up" in a single company; joined out of college, worked there 15+ years, got annual raises, then got laid off and then couldn't find work at their previous salary. And the expectation of an annual raise kept forcing up their salary but I don't think the company was actually evaluating whether or not the person was getting more valuable ove…

Very true. Sometime back I interviewed a person for Java related work. He had roughly 20 years of experience. Unfortunately most of knowledge and skills were intimately related to his last employer. The said person was jobless for 1 year so. Apparently not much use of company specific skills.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#123

Post by vinceguidry »

pmoriarty wrote: post #20

"Time and again, he says, employers seem to lose interest after he answers a question that they ask early on: 'What was your last salary?'" I never answer that question. Almost always it's been recruiters asking that (and only some recruiters, the less reputable ones). This is a seller's market for IT talent. You don't have to give in to bullying tactics to get a good job. I've had to walk away exactly once when a re…

I would not tell recruiters my current salary, ($75K) but I did tell him my target salary, which was market rate for a mid-level Ruby dev in my city. ($115K) He wanted to go in at $110K.

I kept telling him how odd it was to be negotiating salary upfront, and he told me "that's just how recruiting works." I just shrugged and let him do his job. If I'd wanted to negotiate my salary myself, I wouldn't be using a recruiter. Truth be told, I'd take $95K.

I learned from the art world, a lot of times "market value" is a fiction created by people whose job it is to manage expectations on all sides. It's in everybody's best interest to simply accept the status quo. Sure, you can buck the system and gain an additional $10-20K, but that takes a lot of effort and I'd rather put that effort elsewhere.

People buy into the cult of individualism too much. There was an article a month or so back about the maple syrup cartel. People here were applauding the renegades bucking the cartel. Not me. I'd get on very good terms with my cartel rep, get him a very good gift basket for Christmas, jump through every hoop they want me to jump through. The cartel takes a nasty, volatile market and smooths it out and makes it into a nice, reliable engine. That's what I want to be a part of. Not a damn free-for-all.

Any other career field, it would be 10+ years before I can make $100K. Here I managed to do it in 3 years. Be a team player. Climb the ladder, pay your dues. It doesn't take as long as you think.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#124

Post by biot »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #70

I expect there is more than one factor at work here. I've known folks who "grew up" in a single company; joined out of college, worked there 15+ years, got annual raises, then got laid off and then couldn't find work at their previous salary. And the expectation of an annual raise kept forcing up their salary but I don't think the company was actually evaluating whether or not the person was getting more valuable ove…

Both sides are interested in getting a price and, ultimately, it's the person in the weaker position who ends up revealing theirs. Imagine the roof of your house was getting old and started to leak, so you figure it's time to replace it. Upon contacting a roofing company and inquiring what it would cost, they say "You're the one who wants a new roof and are willing to pay for that being done, so you should be offering a price. How much is having a dry roof over your family's head and preserving your home's value by avoiding water damage worth to you? What's the current value of your home? Perhaps we can work on a percentage basis since we're protecting your investment for the next 20 years." Of course, you wouldn't accept such an "enterprise sales" tactic because they're in the weaker position (fairly close to being a commodity) and you have dozens of qualified choices so you'll insist they reveal their hand.

A job situation is no different. If it's a role requiring only "commodity" experience which dozens of qualified candidates are available for and wanting, they're going to pick the best combination of price and performance that they can find. If you have special talents that only you are uniquely suited for, you're the one who will be asking them about their offer.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#125

Post by RealityVoid »

geoelectric wrote: post #95
Spooky23 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At 45 you become untouchable. Too old to be young, too young to be old. How many 50 year olds do you see in SV companies? I knew a guy who was about 50, brilliant, brilliant engineer working for one of the big IT players. Well respected and trusted advisor to many customers. He got vaporized in some big restructuring that hit his division. Because of non-compete and what he did, he was basically out of work for almos…

I see quite a few 50 year olds in larger, more established companies. Older people don't join startups because they can't afford to, as a general rule, but the rest of the age skew that exists is as much because the current round of technological skill set is rooted in the GUI and Internet advances of the 90s as much as anything. That ends up putting a soft bound on career length based on if you did your primary lear…

> Anyone older cut their teeth on assembly or C, NetBIOS, and CLI and may or may not have stayed current afterwards.

Is there something wrong with these in that they are not useful anymore? I see a lot of jobs that require these, and I think they're still very relevant. Actually, I'm relatively young and love that stuff and work with that stuff... I'd love to work with someone who's been working with those for decades, experience really does show.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#126

Post by Spooky23 »

geoelectric wrote: post #95
Spooky23 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At 45 you become untouchable. Too old to be young, too young to be old. How many 50 year olds do you see in SV companies? I knew a guy who was about 50, brilliant, brilliant engineer working for one of the big IT players. Well respected and trusted advisor to many customers. He got vaporized in some big restructuring that hit his division. Because of non-compete and what he did, he was basically out of work for almos…

I see quite a few 50 year olds in larger, more established companies. Older people don't join startups because they can't afford to, as a general rule, but the rest of the age skew that exists is as much because the current round of technological skill set is rooted in the GUI and Internet advances of the 90s as much as anything. That ends up putting a soft bound on career length based on if you did your primary lear…

Absolutely. The point is, when they get RIFed, they are screwed.

IBM was particularly brutal about this stuff when they were eliminating people still on the pension plan.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#127

Post by X-Istence »

smileysteve wrote: post #27

I find recruiters hurt this more than help it too. If you tell them your last salary, they'll just try to get enough % more to make it worth the transition.

That's what I don't tell anyone what my previous salary was. I am looking for X dollars per hour, do you have anything for me in that range? Yes or no...

That's it. I'll generally let them know it is open to negotiation as well.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#128

Post by Spooky23 »

greggarious wrote: post #81
Spooky23 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At 45 you become untouchable. Too old to be young, too young to be old. How many 50 year olds do you see in SV companies? I knew a guy who was about 50, brilliant, brilliant engineer working for one of the big IT players. Well respected and trusted advisor to many customers. He got vaporized in some big restructuring that hit his division. Because of non-compete and what he did, he was basically out of work for almos…

I don't understand - I thought non-competes were unenforceable in CA?

I've worked in NY and MA. They are very enforceable there.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#129

Post by vacri »

fecak wrote: post #109
pmoriarty wrote: post #20

"Time and again, he says, employers seem to lose interest after he answers a question that they ask early on: 'What was your last salary?'" I never answer that question. Almost always it's been recruiters asking that (and only some recruiters, the less reputable ones). This is a seller's market for IT talent. You don't have to give in to bullying tactics to get a good job. I've had to walk away exactly once when a re…

I own my recruiting agency, and I don't care what your last salary was. I do care about what you are looking for so I don't waste your time, my time, or the client's time. I also realize that any target range you give me before even meeting the client may increase or even decrease after you learn all about the company, team, benefits, etc. All that said, a candidate that knows their market value should never have to…

> All that said, a candidate that knows their market value should never have to fear talking about salary history or expectations.

The main article starts with an anecdote about how talking about salary history prevents a guy from getting work.

Re: High Salaries Haunt Some Job Hunters

#130

Post by Riod »

tossaway1 wrote: post #112
noddingham wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you should share the range for the position and let the candidate decide if it's worth continuing.

I share if the candidate asks. In the end the candidates requirements come out though. If I say X, they'll often say, oh I really need Y. I can work with that. If they just walk away when I say X, that's fine too -- it wasn't a good fit.

That's not a fit issue. They just don't want to work for that wage. Find someone who will. Why do they have to ask? If you're really interested in efficiency, state it upfront, atleast the lower and upper bounds.
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