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Making 20% Time Work

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Re: Making 20% Time Work

#121

Post by bostonpete »

sqldba wrote: post #117
bostonpete wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don't fucking act like its free time Do companies act like it's "free" time? My impression was that it's intended to be free time to focus on projects of your choosing, but still things that will (or may) benefit the company. This is a far cry from free time to work on personal endeavors which you seem to be describing.

It's not like you're digging a hole in your backyard. It's meant to be (or should be) providing time to do something outside of management's understanding of what's important.

Sure, but has any company ever had a completely hands-off approach to 20% time? That seems unrealistic to expect for such a large investment. I'm sure you have to strike the right balance in order for that time to be effective but your initial comment came across sounding like any attempt by the company to ensure that the 20% is time well-spent is some sort of intrusion into developers' "free" time.

Re: Making 20% Time Work

#122

Post by jmbwell »

I read this less as the company trying to control your 20% time, and more as the company making your 20% a first-class citizen among its other projects, by using the same resources and processes.

Re: Making 20% Time Work

#123

Post by Retra »

calibraxis wrote: post #114
nathan_f77 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also had the same initial reaction, but also keep in mind that these guys are paying your salary. You are literally there to serve the company in exchange for money. If your manager wants to make your 20% time more structured, then so be it. It's not free time, it's just a block of time set aside for research, experimenting, and innovation. You're still being paid for it, and it's not like you're being asked to wor…

> You are literally there to serve the company in exchange for money. [...] If you want a lot of free time, then you can find a part-time freelance job and work from home. Fully agree with the premise — you are a servant meant to obey orders. But there's another conclusion: try to set aside time for freedom regardless of what Big Boss says. For example, everything is negotiable: how much they surveil or micro-command…

My paycheck is there to make me considerate of my employer's priorities, it does not make me be a slave to them. If those priorities are misplaced, I have no obligation to support them.

Re: Making 20% Time Work

#124

Post by sokoloff »

Retra wrote: post #123
calibraxis wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are literally there to serve the company in exchange for money. [...] If you want a lot of free time, then you can find a part-time freelance job and work from home. Fully agree with the premise — you are a servant meant to obey orders. But there's another conclusion: try to set aside time for freedom regardless of what Big Boss says. For example, everything is negotiable: how much they surveil or micro-command…

My paycheck is there to make me considerate of my employer's priorities, it does not make me be a slave to them. If those priorities are misplaced, I have no obligation to support them.

Agreed. Correspondingly, if you don't adequately support their priorities, they have no obligation to continue to employ you.

It truly is a two-way street and works best with cooperation and some give and take on both sides. Treating it as a purely antagonistic relationship is poisonous and generally not sustainable. If you think it's that bad, go someplace else.

Re: Making 20% Time Work

#125

Post by meric »

ilostmykeys wrote: post #119
meric wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do all of those things and code something of interest to me and my company has no 20% time. I understand, you'd like more time to do those things, but time when we get to do whatever we want is called a day off.

That's a terrible attitude.

Look, if you want to study web frameworks, tell your employer you want to work 4 days a week and spend a day studying for yourself.

How's the conversation going to go?

"Can I spend every Friday learning this new web framework? No, we don't use it, but I think you should be supporting me increasing my skill set. Yes I still expect to be paid."

Really?

Re: Making 20% Time Work

#126

Post by mbrock »

onion2k wrote: post #100
js8 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with GP. Can't really answer the hiring question (because I am not interested in being anyone's boss), but why not? Do you think that the way to advance your career is always do what you're being told? GP's suggestion, at least, makes life a lot more interesting.. And people willing to take risks and make their own projects typically will have better CVs. I would rather see somebody genuinely advance in the o…

I would rather see somebody genuinely advance in the organization by genuinely improving something (and taking some risk), while taking time from a stupid project, rather than by taking credit for work of someone else (but that never happens, right?). What you don't seem to realise is that there are no stupid projects . Someone in the business believes that the "stupid project" is a good idea that's worthwhile paying…

I have at times needed to keep projects "secret" because I knew that there would be a 95% chance that the idea would be shot down immediately in any meeting due to being infeasible, politically/personally tricky in some way, difficult to explain, and so on. So I have worked on these ideas sometimes at off hours, or while also making progress on other tasks. Thus far, these skunkworks have been very successful. There is an element to it in many things I do... I often prefer a bit of vagueness around what I am actually doing, since it gives me more freedom to consider solutions that might not be in line with what everybody would expect. Which sometimes makes me wonder if I am being a "cowboy coder" or something. Some of it is due to my skills of persuasion and communication—if I were better at that, maybe I wouldn't need secrecy. But I also just know that some good ideas will not fly in a group meeting before a prototype exists. Then my duty and passion for the product and company override my duty to clear everything with the whole team, I feel. It's not an easy question.

Re: Making 20% Time Work

#127

Post by elbear »

sqldba wrote: post #68

Wow I would absolutely hate this. I'm not doing 20% time to trend shit for YOU on GitHub so that YOU can feel like you're doing something as a manager; intruding on and micromanaging "free time" until it's anything but "free". I'm doing it to answer a burning question I have about something and do some exploration whether YOU think it's useful or not. And before you whinge and bitch that I'm there to serve the compan…

Did we read the same article? What I got from it is that you can work on any project of your choosing, not a company project.

Here's a relevant quotation: "To start we ask each person to add to a vertical list of project names on the left side of a whiteboard. These are projects the group can work on. It’s fine, and in fact common, for people to list their own pet projects."

Also, I see no reason why you can't use this system and, at the same time, have someone work on whatever they want, if that's what they feel like.

Re: Making 20% Time Work

#128

Post by codeonfire »

areyouforreal wrote: post #102
codeonfire wrote: post #54

How to make 20% time: Just do it. Don't tell anyone. Tell that asshole trying to control your work to fuck off. When you've got something, tell the right people about it. Watch the other assholes at your job trip over themselves as they trash your work that you already got buy in from from the right people. Publish it. Launch it. Put it on your resume. You'll probably get fired because the assholes will resent that y…

What makes you so sure you know best? What if everybody within the organisation did this? Why wait until you've pissed people off enough to get fired, rather than leave and find somewhere that can accommodate your great ideas? Shouldn't be too difficult if they are so good. Or even better, start your own business where everyone gets free rein to indulge themselves as they please.

>What makes you so sure you know best?

Because I work on huge swaths of the business and know where the huge piles of technical debt and risk are. I also know that people that are not rank and file engineers are hired for their ability to look good not do good. They can make polishing a turd look good by selling it to executives and having everyone else polish turds.

>What if everybody within the organisation did this?

Then you get a high functioning organization that makes billions of dollars.

>Why wait until you've pissed people off enough to get fired

Leaving early is a pattern for top people. They accomplish a lot and job hop before the unpleasantness starts. It can take up to six months for an organization to react negatively to the fact that some engineer actually got credit for something they initiated.

>start your own business where everyone gets free rein

Yeah, this is ideal but you need three or four years cash runway and that is very hard to get. Incubators and angels only give enough that you become dependent on financiers who have their own set of goals.

Re: Making 20% Time Work

#129

Post by douche »

mbrock wrote: post #126
onion2k wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would rather see somebody genuinely advance in the organization by genuinely improving something (and taking some risk), while taking time from a stupid project, rather than by taking credit for work of someone else (but that never happens, right?). What you don't seem to realise is that there are no stupid projects . Someone in the business believes that the "stupid project" is a good idea that's worthwhile paying…

I have at times needed to keep projects "secret" because I knew that there would be a 95% chance that the idea would be shot down immediately in any meeting due to being infeasible, politically/personally tricky in some way, difficult to explain, and so on. So I have worked on these ideas sometimes at off hours, or while also making progress on other tasks. Thus far, these skunkworks have been very successful. There…

Asking forgiveness is usually easier than asking permission. Also, it's harder to justify shaving the yak when you deliver it pre-shaved.

Re: Making 20% Time Work

#130

Post by dasmoth »

elbear wrote: post #127
sqldba wrote: post #68

Wow I would absolutely hate this. I'm not doing 20% time to trend shit for YOU on GitHub so that YOU can feel like you're doing something as a manager; intruding on and micromanaging "free time" until it's anything but "free". I'm doing it to answer a burning question I have about something and do some exploration whether YOU think it's useful or not. And before you whinge and bitch that I'm there to serve the compan…

Did we read the same article? What I got from it is that you can work on any project of your choosing, not a company project. Here's a relevant quotation: "To start we ask each person to add to a vertical list of project names on the left side of a whiteboard. These are projects the group can work on. It’s fine, and in fact common, for people to list their own pet projects." Also, I see no reason why you can't use th…

"Each person now chooses from their original three the task which consolidates the collective work on as few projects as possible."

It's an "enforced teamwork" situation (the article is pretty explicit about this up-front). If you want to work on a personal project, you're going to have to attract some others to join you.

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