Live data from Hacker News

Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

theglobeandmail.com

121–130 of 169 posts

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#121
post #90
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government invested all that money in small to middle sized local companies instead the province would be so much more prosperous. How exactly is anyone helped by money taking a round trip through the government rather than the same thing happening through free markets? You've made the cycle slower, you've made the recipients dependent on government bureaucratic decisions (who are not well-incentivized to deci…

"Quebec's largest mistake was, of course, Bill 101" ... I thought it was the almost won referendum that drove this exile, not Bill 101. My impression is that if you lowered the income tax in Quebec (much higher then Ontario), most probably more professionals would be willing to work there, english or french or any other language. I agree with your statement of "Quebec being full of people who believe that the economy…

I moved to Montreal from Toronto because of the great urban environment which I found (and still believe to be) superior to Toronto. The rents were cheap and salaries were lower, which made me believe running a startup there would be much easier. From the outside I wondered why everyone from Toronto wasn't moving there to build companies.

But after a year living there I left - 100% due to the hostility to strictly English-speaking people.

I hoped my lack of french-speaking ability would only be a minor hurdle that I could slowly overcome as I grasped the language over the years. But every single store you go into requires that they start speaking in french first (a bylaw). I watched three major street protests while walking downtown against stores who didn't change their globally-recognized retail brand names to french versions.

Plus I felt a large cliquey nature to the Montreal tech scene. I felt like a foreigner in my own country. I was happy to go back to Toronto where multiculturalism is actually fully embraced. Where almost everyone still speaks their native language first, often remaining in cultural divided in neighbourhoods, and despite this mixing at bars and events is never an uncomfortable experience.

Quebec's greatest economic problem is their obsession with cultural homogeneity.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worse in London. I seen a rant on Medium [1] about the lack of affordable talent in London and I could only think of some of the low ball offers I received which would leave me worse off than staying in the North West. I actually get paid more here in Toronto than I could hope to get in London. My only option for the US is H1B but I'm willing to stick around for a while and I'll consider my options when I'm Cana…

Thanks for that link, it was a good laugh. The dissonance with reality was strong there. A single look at indeed.co.uk will reveal nary a single 600£ daily rate even for senior developers. Best of luck getting a pay increase; hopefully you don't have to deal with the horror of the H1B process to get paid what should be the global rate for software developers.

I love the veiled language in that article - "a new generation of proto-programmers emerge to correct the market" - you mean you hope a bunch of cheap new blood comes in because you wont pay market rates? Yeah, ok.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#123
post #3

"If the Canadian government is serious about long-term growth, it must focus on how it can build cities and policies that attract people and businesses. But we have not been headed in the right direction on this front." YES! I live in Quebec city and there is a rampant idea in the population that the status quo is the only way forward. More petroleum exploration, larger highways, big government mining investments/sub…

Agreed with the harm to locally-made innovation. In my city (Fredericton, NB) the tech industry has hade (seemingly) more and more bigger companies (Raytheon, Siemens, Salesforce, IBM) setting up shop and bringing better wages. It's a double-edged sword. We have a pretty interesting startup scene, but those smaller companies (startups and consultants) are now finding it harder to compete with the salaries and benefit…

That's the only way to really drive salaries up though. Which is the only way to retain talent when it is so easy to cross the border and start making a whole lot more.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#124
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to play second fiddle to Toronto and Vancouver, but here in Mtl we have a fairly lively startup scene and some bigger players like Ubisoft, Google, and Bombardier as well. I frequent our Montréal Python usergroup, and I'm routinely impressed by the calibre of the presentations and the work that people are showing off.[1] If you want talent, it's certainly available, and it's cheaper than SV. [1] https://www.youtu…

Montreal has a fairly decent cluster of game studios, does it not? If nothing else I'm hoping they're hard at work making the next Deus Ex game at Eidos Montreal :)

They give tax breaks.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#125

> No rational economist can look at the situation in Canada and say that "Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie" it's a ridiculous statement. Many "rational economists" have made that statement. Even the head of the Bank of Canada himself has suggested it is regrettable that our currency is so tied to oil. He can't openly criticize gov policy and so that's about as close as Poloz can g…

> Classic hacker news comment. "I must disagree with whatever the post says and declare that no rational person could disagree with my criticism."

That is even more of a "classic hacker news comment", in the bad sense, than the one you're objecting to. I've noticed that generalizations about HN in arguments always degrade the quality of the discussion. The trouble is that community members (on all sides of any divide) tend to extrapolate whatever they notice and dislike into an image of the community as a whole, which then resembles the image of their adversaries. This is bad for the community, especially because we have no face-to-face contact to mitigate it.

I don't mean to pick on your comment in particular. It's a pattern that comes up a lot when commenters diss the community.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10887769 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#126
post #119
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>wondering whether I should turn around and buy property as an investment Why would you do this? There's been nothing but talk about a housing bubble, especially in Vancouver and Toronto. This seems like the worst possible time to buy property there, especially if you take any debt to do it.

Buy after it bursts, when prices collapse.

Yeah, reading this just makes me think that now is when I should be saving up to buy in Vancouver and return home.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#127

I've been saying this to my circle of friends and family for years. The stark contrast between Toronto and Silicon Valley is mind-numbing. And the short-sightedness of our politicians and society is infuriating. I cannot understand why people think it's ok to rely on banks, resource companies, and manufacturing to hold up our economy. We need to invest in growth sectors. It may not create a ton of jobs immediately, b…

> The stark contrast between Toronto and Silicon Valley is mind-numbing. And the short-sightedness of our politicians and society is infuriating.

As a Canadian in tech, moving to SV is something I regularly consider. However, the nonsense that is Bay-area politics is really off-putting. Unfortunately, the state and federal politics are hardly any better. Americans seem to hate each other.

There are many things that are attractive about the United States. The politics are definitely are not up there on my list.

(That being said, from Toronto maybe it's not such a big step down. The Rob Ford fiasco appeared to be a symptom of deeper problems.)

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a recent University of Waterloo grad, this has been my experience as well. I tried interviewing in Toronto/Vancouver for a while but have since given up in the Canadian job market. Not a single company I interviewed with was willing to even come close to US salaries. Everyone I know from school who's any good at all has already left for SF/Seattle/NYC and I'll probably be joining them soon. I'm not sure how these…

It's worse in London. I seen a rant on Medium [1] about the lack of affordable talent in London and I could only think of some of the low ball offers I received which would leave me worse off than staying in the North West. I actually get paid more here in Toronto than I could hope to get in London. My only option for the US is H1B but I'm willing to stick around for a while and I'll consider my options when I'm Cana…

I realize we're a lot better off here in Canada than in many other places around the world, but it's still baffling how ridiculously uncompetitive our salaries can be when the barrier to entry into the US is almost non-existent.

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#129

We had a gov't for 10 years full of "Calgary-school" (Canada's right-wing ultra free market economic ideologues coming out of the University of Calgary econ/poli-sci program). They were overwhelmingly driven by an oil and gas agenda. From the gov't down to mutual fund investors, everyone was treating our economy like a one-trick pony, all oil and gas. If you listened to people talk, Alberta's oil sector was supportin…

>a story to the country about resource driven prosperity which was factually incorrect In a way, all stories about resource driven prosperity are incorrect. Natural resources are exported and so is the wealth they bring. You never hear about the prosperity of mining towns because they never have any, and when the resources run out they don't have jobs either.

Same for countries exporting agricultural produce. They can't tarrif imports to stimulate local economic development because of WTO & IMF. Kenya will be stuck growing flowers forever!

Re: Canada forgot to plan for its future by leaning on oil and the loonie

#130
post #90
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the government invested all that money in small to middle sized local companies instead the province would be so much more prosperous. How exactly is anyone helped by money taking a round trip through the government rather than the same thing happening through free markets? You've made the cycle slower, you've made the recipients dependent on government bureaucratic decisions (who are not well-incentivized to deci…

"Quebec's largest mistake was, of course, Bill 101" ... I thought it was the almost won referendum that drove this exile, not Bill 101. My impression is that if you lowered the income tax in Quebec (much higher then Ontario), most probably more professionals would be willing to work there, english or french or any other language. I agree with your statement of "Quebec being full of people who believe that the economy…

My marginal tax rate in NYC is not too far off from what it would be in Québec. My income as a not-quite-senior software engineer, however, is ~3.5x higher. Taxes would have to go down below zero for a move to make sense financially.

That said, Montréal is a great city and I'm actually considering moving back, despite the dramatic drop in income.

Post reply on HN