How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal • Hacker News Board

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#121

Post by silverlake » Wed, Dec 30, 2015, 7:20 PM UTC

devonkim wrote: post #69

mwcampbell wrote: post #23

> There’s the company with a reputation for having great engineering practices that had 2 9s of reliability last time I checked, for reasons that are entirely predictable from their engineering practices. This is the second thing in a row that’s basically anonymous because multiple companies find it to be normal. Multiple companies find practices that lead to 2 9s of reliability to be completely and totally normal. I…

Is the implication that 2 9s are really bad, mediocre, or some other negative judgment in this context? I'm familiar with a lot of places that have trouble with even 1 9 of reliability with lots of capital but terrible culture despite employing lots of operational controls and some best practices that have trouble with one 9, so even 2 9s sounds like a dream sometimes and the way that Dan Luu worded this article make…

1 9 is terrible (1 month down!). 2 9s is ok (4 days down) for a lumbering IT dinosaur, terrible for any SV company.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#122

Post by Spooky23 » Wed, Dec 30, 2015, 7:20 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #62

vinceguidry wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you seriously believe that all (or most) companies disallow anyone not in leadership to improve things, I'd consider getting out of your current situation and seeing things again with clear eyes. I've been around a bunch, including the US Air Force, and I can confidently tell you that heavily hierarchical organizational culture is the norm, individuals contributors who want to have effects beyond their job scope…

The DoD (!) is hardly representative of the cultures being discussed in the linked article, which is about tech startups (with a bunch of examples from medicine too). Yes, there are worse examples, but those may be beyond help.

As an enterprise grows, you either retain centralized control and have hierarchy, or distribute control by treating parts of the org like independent, federated entities (think Berkshire Hathaway).

The military's size, scope, and mission are unique. You need top-down control, because otherwise most folks won't decide to run up a hill into a machine gun on their own. That mission focus (do stuff with force), cascades into the supporting services.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#123

Post by cballard » Wed, Dec 30, 2015, 7:21 PM UTC

karlkatzke wrote: post #73

cballard wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you give them a ton of advance warning when you left? http://www.onlyonceblog.com/2013/09/how-to-quit-your-job

I left it open-ended, actually. I talked to the CDO and explained why I was leaving. He agreed with the decision and thanked me for being brave enough to stand up and say it. It ended up being three weeks before we agreed that I'd successfully handed off everything. No bad feelings either way -- I'd joined the company because they had said that they wanted to 'grow up,' but that was a feeling percolating up from belo…

That's still pretty good for a company you thought was (somewhat?) dysfunctional!

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#124

Post by asuffield » Wed, Dec 30, 2015, 7:21 PM UTC

mikekchar wrote: post #108

calinet6 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. There's a whole philosophy based on the idea that improvement of the organization is everyone's job. It's called Lean, or more simply, continuous improvement or Kaizen.

I hesitated to reply to this because what I'm about to say could be taken as pedantic. However, it is my experience that many people experience a good way of working, apply a label to it and then use that label thinking that it will communicate all of the good things that they intended. This is rarely the case. At some point you see many articles entitled "Why X doesn't work" where they describe a broken version of X…

I think the lesson to learn from this is to be wary of anybody who says they can look at a system for organising people that works well and write down a recipe for how to reproduce the essential elements of that system. Even if they were partially responsible for creating it. Most likely, nobody understands why it works in enough detail to write down precisely what it would take to reproduce it.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#125

Post by quanticle » Wed, Dec 30, 2015, 7:24 PM UTC

mattkevan wrote: post #90

danso wrote: post #10

I immediately thought of the "5 monkeys and a ladder" psychology study, in which the first monkey attempts to climb the ladder to get a banana and all of the monkeys are sprayed with water. Then one of the monkeys is replaced with a newcomer, who then tries to climb the ladder, but this time, the remaining original monkeys attack it. And so the replacing of the monkeys continues, until none of the monkeys knows what…

It's a bit like when there's two cash machines, with a long queue at the first but no-one at the second. You can see people looking at it, wondering whether it's worth the humiliation of finding it's broken and having to go to the back of the queue, or the joy of finding it is working and getting one over everyone else. Often nobody cracks.

I had this exact experience at the movie theater, yesterday. There were two cash registers at the concession stand, but there was some ambiguity as to whether the second one was staffed. So, at first, like everyone else, I queued up at the first register. I asked around and nobody seemed to know whether the second register was open.

However, I noticed that the line on this register was moving rather slowly, and not wanting to be late for my film, I decided to take a risk and walked up to the second register. Lo and behold, it was actually open, and I had my popcorn in about a minute. If I hadn't been late for my movie, I don't think I would have gone to the second register.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#126

Post by klenwell » Wed, Dec 30, 2015, 7:25 PM UTC

mattkevan wrote: post #90

danso wrote: post #10

I immediately thought of the "5 monkeys and a ladder" psychology study, in which the first monkey attempts to climb the ladder to get a banana and all of the monkeys are sprayed with water. Then one of the monkeys is replaced with a newcomer, who then tries to climb the ladder, but this time, the remaining original monkeys attack it. And so the replacing of the monkeys continues, until none of the monkeys knows what…

It's a bit like when there's two cash machines, with a long queue at the first but no-one at the second. You can see people looking at it, wondering whether it's worth the humiliation of finding it's broken and having to go to the back of the queue, or the joy of finding it is working and getting one over everyone else. Often nobody cracks.

I actually come across this scenario quite often in retail outlets with poorly designed queue layouts (e.g. an H&M with with 2-4 registers behind a long counter and a single ad-hoc queue lined up in front of one of them).

My reasoning is a little different (and a little more charitable I suppose in its generalization about human nature): I don't want to go step in front of the register with no one waiting in it because I don't want to look like a sociopathic jerk. I also assume that is why most people haven't done so.

At the same time, I know as soon as someone does step up and do it, people will grumble but the single ad hoc queue will redistribute itself into 3 more balanced queues. I'm usually waiting for someone else to be that sociopathic jerk.

What I wish is that the manager of the store gave a little more thought to this issue in the first place.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#127

Post by calinet6 » Wed, Dec 30, 2015, 7:29 PM UTC

asuffield wrote: post #124

mikekchar wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hesitated to reply to this because what I'm about to say could be taken as pedantic. However, it is my experience that many people experience a good way of working, apply a label to it and then use that label thinking that it will communicate all of the good things that they intended. This is rarely the case. At some point you see many articles entitled "Why X doesn't work" where they describe a broken version of X…

I think the lesson to learn from this is to be wary of anybody who says they can look at a system for organising people that works well and write down a recipe for how to reproduce the essential elements of that system. Even if they were partially responsible for creating it. Most likely, nobody understands why it works in enough detail to write down precisely what it would take to reproduce it.

W. Edwards Deming got the closest I think?

System of the organization comprises the relationship between systems within it, how those systems change and vary, the methods of knowledge learning and transfer, and the psychology and behavior of the people within it. And importantly, it's how all those pieces interact with each other that makes the most difference.

It's a system. There are some common elements. Above that base level, there is much truth in what you say, but the most important thing you can learn is a mental model for organizations in the most general way possible.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#128

Post by vinceguidry » Wed, Dec 30, 2015, 7:33 PM UTC

Dr_tldr wrote: post #81

vinceguidry wrote: post #15

Most of what the author is complaining about boils down to business needs being more important than the needs of the engineering team. To be blunt, they're paying you to do a job, not to make the organization better. That's what they pay the leadership for. You want to be part of the leadership, work your way through the ranks or start your own business. My life got much, much easier once I learned to stop straining…

I appreciate your honesty, but I definitely would not want to work in a company where that was the prevailing attitude, nor would I hire someone who took that as their MO. It's a pragmatic policy for each individual, but it also leads to endless passing of the buck. "What can I do, I'm just a dev, the team lead should figure it out" turns into: "what can I do, I'm just team lead, the department head should figure it…

There are many reactions you can have to a lack of interest in your plan for organizational change. Quitting and moving on is definitely a contender. I am moving on, but I am taking the opportunity to accomplish several personal goals before doing so. My company would hate to see me disappear abruptly, and I've already got the go-ahead for a sizable consulting arrangement so they aren't left in a lurch.

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#129

Post by paulddraper » Wed, Dec 30, 2015, 7:35 PM UTC

klenwell wrote: post #126

mattkevan wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit like when there's two cash machines, with a long queue at the first but no-one at the second. You can see people looking at it, wondering whether it's worth the humiliation of finding it's broken and having to go to the back of the queue, or the joy of finding it is working and getting one over everyone else. Often nobody cracks.

I actually come across this scenario quite often in retail outlets with poorly designed queue layouts (e.g. an H&M with with 2-4 registers behind a long counter and a single ad-hoc queue lined up in front of one of them). My reasoning is a little different (and a little more charitable I suppose in its generalization about human nature): I don't want to go step in front of the register with no one waiting in it becau…

tl;dr Thank goodness for sociopathic jerks

Re: How Completely Messed Up Practices Become Normal

#130

Post by quanticle » Wed, Dec 30, 2015, 7:42 PM UTC

pbreit wrote: post #116

vinceguidry wrote: post #15

Most of what the author is complaining about boils down to business needs being more important than the needs of the engineering team. To be blunt, they're paying you to do a job, not to make the organization better. That's what they pay the leadership for. You want to be part of the leadership, work your way through the ranks or start your own business. My life got much, much easier once I learned to stop straining…

I don't think you have to compromise much. If you have any self-worth, you'll strive for improvement. You don't have even have to that careful about rubbing folks the wrong way. You're not going to get fired or anything.

>You're not going to get fired or anything.

You won't get fired, but what might happen is that you get a reputation for being "that guy". The "guy who's always complaining about unit tests". Or, "the guy who emphasizes process of 'agility'". What then happens is that the moment you speak up, management tunes out. They know what you're going to say. They know what you're asking for. And they've already told you no. At that point, you're basically screwed, organizationally. You have a reputation as a troublemaker, which will make transfers difficult. You're not going to get the desirable assignments on the product that you're currently working on. So even if you don't get fired, your life is often made so miserable that you leave.