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Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

quantamagazine.org

121–130 of 168 posts

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#121
post #82
post #34

We had a rush of scientific breakthroughs 100 years ago. I believe we will have more. That experimentation in physics has slowed down to 18th century levels doesn't mean science is over, it just means the low-hanging fruit is over and we will have to continue slogging through theory before we discover new experiments. Science has always relied on philosophy for its underlying direction, it's just obvious again. It to…

> It took 2040 years before science/math could answer Zeno's paradoxes. And that's only if we assume calculus answered them. Which is not the absolute consensus of logicians/mathematicians. Many seem to believe they are simply about limits and that's all, but they may also point to a more fundamental aspect of reality. E.g. from Wiki: A suggested problem with using calculus to try to solve Zeno's paradoxes is that th…

doesn't quantum mechanics mean everything has a lowest resolution of discrete steps, ie. Plank-time and Plank-length. In that sense, calculus over finite terms is enough.

The paradox is illogical anyhow, it fails to equate simple v*t=s.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#122
post #62
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd actually argue against astrology being falsifiable. It mostly consists of making generic "predictions" that could apply to anyone, it's the very definition of unfalsifiability. It would be falsifiable if it made predictions like "soheil will spend exactly 35 minutes on Hacker News today", but it doesn't, instead it makes predictions like "You have a deeper side to you that people don't know about", total bs but n…

I also agree, as a whole, Astrology isn't falsifiable. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I'd argue that it's purer than most because measurements interfer less with the measurenent space. The equipment and local setup are at odds, though.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#123
post #79
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just shows how sad academia is. Wouldn't be the first time I'm seeing those guys ponder endlessly on something other people say or do without bothering to really understand what those others are thinking and trying to achieve. BTW, is astrology actually falsifiable? I'm under impression that astrologists deliberately strive for unfalsifiability exactly to avoid falsification which could cast doubt on their wisdom.

> BTW, is astrology actually falsifiable? I'm under impression that astrologists deliberately strive for unfalsifiability exactly to avoid falsification which could cast doubt on their wisdom. It is. Just do the following experiment: Find, say, ten persons and an (or many) astrologists and let them create a horoscope (say, either a prognosis for the future or description of character traits) for these 10 persons, whe…

> Now just formulate some sensible statistical model and voila - falsified.

I think it was Carl Sagan who said that "soft sciences" are actually "cargo cult sciences".

Out of your ten people, two are astrology haters and respond that everything is false, two are astrology nuts and respond that everything is true, two respond at random because they can't believe you are bothering them with such bullshit, two respond at random because they think you are CIA agent trying to read their mind, two respond mostly true because horoscopes are deliberately vague and they will find confirmation for most of the claims if they try hard enough.

So you get 55% true. With sufficiently large sample size p-value goes down and you claim that astrology is valid.

As if your aunt hasn't been telling you that for your whole life...

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#124

I think high level theory is wandering aimlessly through a field blindfolded with little guidance or where to look. This is because our current theories are so good, we have no idea where to look. So it begins conjecturing and conjecturing. What it ends up with is nonsensical garbage that does little to advance physics. But yet, there isn't a crisis in physics at all since these theorists are so far removed from real…

> It's hard to explain philosophically

Not really; you're just confusing your opinion with some deeper truth :)

We can posit that people exist with the opposite opinion (they do) and it reveals that all we've learned is how your views on what's interesting in science have changed.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But yet, there isn't a crisis in physics at all since these theorists are so far removed from reality, I don't really care what they think. They don't really tell use anything useful or interesting so I tend to ignore them. Einstein was a theoretical physicist. Without his theories: * Japan might not have been defeated in WWII. * There might be more coal power plants, because there would be no nuclear power plants.…

I don't think you seem to understand the argument here. Einstein is a prime example of a theorist whose bold theories predicted verifiable results, such as the Einstein Cross. The problem with modern theorists, as the article and the parent comment articulated, is that string theories and whatnot often predict untestable and unverifiable results. This is not an attack on all physics theorists - rather, it's a critici…

"Then I would feel sorry for the good Lord; the theory is correct". Einstein's theories were ultimately verified, but only long after they were completed. Research into string theory is driven by its theoretical elegance in exactly the same way as Einstein's original SR work.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#126
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Physics used to be "hard science" - Physics is still a hard science. However, the edges of physics are difficult to test. > In cosmology, you can only observe, not experiment Saying that is like saying "we don't know evolution is true, because we don't see new species evolve every day". It's a naive approach to science. In both cases, you can use theories to make predictions about new things to look for. e.g. http:…

The NFL is funded because it provides entertainment, and we all know how well that sells.

and how well that prevents people from critical thinking.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#127
post #104
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It took 2040 years before science/math could answer Zeno's paradoxes. And that's only if we assume calculus answered them. Which is not the absolute consensus of logicians/mathematicians. Many seem to believe they are simply about limits and that's all, but they may also point to a more fundamental aspect of reality. E.g. from Wiki: A suggested problem with using calculus to try to solve Zeno's paradoxes is that th…

>Imagine that Achilles notes the position ... and so on If in logic you assume/imagine something, and reach a contradiction, then your reaction should be to reject that assumption. In this case we reach the conclusion that Achilles cannot note all the positions.

That's not adding anything new. The very idea of the thought experiment is that we reach a contradiction and that we therefore should reject the assumption.

The problem, and the whole point of the thought experiment, is that the assumption is tied to Achilles being able to make the distance, so we should ditch that too.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#128
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It took 2040 years before science/math could answer Zeno's paradoxes. And that's only if we assume calculus answered them. Which is not the absolute consensus of logicians/mathematicians. Many seem to believe they are simply about limits and that's all, but they may also point to a more fundamental aspect of reality. E.g. from Wiki: A suggested problem with using calculus to try to solve Zeno's paradoxes is that th…

doesn't quantum mechanics mean everything has a lowest resolution of discrete steps, ie. Plank-time and Plank-length. In that sense, calculus over finite terms is enough. The paradox is illogical anyhow, it fails to equate simple v*t=s.

>doesn't quantum mechanics mean everything has a lowest resolution of discrete steps, ie. Plank-time and Plank-length. In that sense, calculus over finite terms is enough.

That's one solution yes, but whether the universe is continuous or discreet is not a "solved" problem in physics in general. The lowest resolution could just be a "sampling restriction" (or quantum laws etc) and not the actual reality. There have been some experiments to discern between the two cases, but nothing conclusive IIRC.

>The paradox is illogical anyhow, it fails to equate simple vt=s.*

That's not being illogical. vt=s is not logic, is just a formula that we deduced and which matches what we see in everyday life (and in fact it's not absolute, e.g. when it comes close to the speed of light etc).

The paradox just checks whether vt=s is compatible with certain descriptions of the chain of events that look intuitive at first.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#129

Nowadays, as several philosophers at the workshop said, Popperian falsificationism has been supplanted by Bayesian confirmation theory, or Bayesianism, a modern framework based on the 18th-century probability theory of the English statistician and minister Thomas Bayes. Bayesianism allows for the fact that modern scientific theories typically make claims far beyond what can be directly observed — no one has ever seen…

Yes. It's a fairly natural outgrowth of falsification based theories, and is in fact completely necessary. Consider a simple theory - bear attacks will be very low in the UK forever. Consider an alternate theory - bear attacks will be low until 2016 and then the bearpocalypse happens. Both theories have passed all attempts at falsification - they both accurately predict that bears haven't so far eaten very few people…

> The Bayesian approach is to assign a prior distribution to various theories of this nature. Because there are infinitely many possible priors, most exceedingly complicated (because the set of priors of complexity Is the asymptotic relevant though? Physical theories are finite and generically quite small, and we have no a priori way to fix C.

Re: Physicists and Philosophers Debate the Boundaries of Science

#130
post #123
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> BTW, is astrology actually falsifiable? I'm under impression that astrologists deliberately strive for unfalsifiability exactly to avoid falsification which could cast doubt on their wisdom. It is. Just do the following experiment: Find, say, ten persons and an (or many) astrologists and let them create a horoscope (say, either a prognosis for the future or description of character traits) for these 10 persons, whe…

> Now just formulate some sensible statistical model and voila - falsified. I think it was Carl Sagan who said that "soft sciences" are actually "cargo cult sciences". Out of your ten people, two are astrology haters and respond that everything is false, two are astrology nuts and respond that everything is true, two respond at random because they can't believe you are bothering them with such bullshit, two respond a…

In this case you would not look at how correct people think the horoscopes are, you would look at whether they think their own horoscope is most correct (they don’t know which is which of the ten). The average “subjective correctness” of the horoscopes is not something you would be interested in. You might throw it in somewhere in the paper you are writing, but more to show that ceiling or floor effects are not an issue (i.e. nearly everyone thinks the horoscopes are all either completely correct or completely false and as such you cannot really properly measure – like measuring the distance between New York and Los Angeles with a yard stick or the size of a molecule with a yard stick).

I dislike the outcome this experiment is measuring. I’m not an expert on horoscopes (and wouldn’t want to be one), but to me the primary purported function of horoscopes is to predict the future. As such people might not necessarily be able to say beforehand whether their own horoscope is more correct than that of someone else†. How should they know? But that is easily fixed: Just ask them to rank the horoscopes after the purported predicted time frame …

Altogether this seems like a solid setup to me, though. It would be fun to conduct this, but ultimately pointless. Astrology is just a too low hanging fruit.

(A potential issue might be people’s awareness of stereotypes associated with their astrological sign. I’m not sure how big a role those play of how important and consistent across different astrologers those are – as I said, not an expert – but if stereotypes associated with astrological signs are consistent and generally well known people might be able to identify the correct horoscope just based on the knowledge of those stereotypes, not any predictive power of the horoscopes.)

It was Feynman using the term cargo cult science. And he was not only talking about soft science, he was more generally talking about all of science. And it was not a general condemnation, it was about saying that “cargo cult science” is always a possibility and obviously an issue, but not that it is always an issue. Though I would definitely agree with you in saying that quantitative soft sciences suffer the most from cargo cult thinking.

It’s a paradox, really. “Soft science” is actually really hard. Measuring people and people’s behavior is a nightmare. There are so many variables, so many complex, ever-changing systems. We are at the limits of what we can achieve and our measuring instruments are extremely blunt and imprecise.

Because it’s so hard we are currently not even trying to solve many of the hard problems there. Because we just don’t know how. As such we limit ourselves to simple stuff and the people who are adept at doing the hard stuff (but not as hard as soft science, since that is so hard, no one knows how to properly do it) are doing things that are easier to nail down, with fewer variables – like physics.

And quantitative soft science limits itself by necessity to simple stuff. It simplifies without understanding the underlying complexity. And often slips into cargo cult thinking doing that …

† Though I actually think this is the real function of horoscopes: People have to be able to identify with them and think that they fit them when they are reading them. It’s entertainment. That’s why they are full of platitudes and not very specific.

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