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My positive experience as a woman in tech

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Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#121

Post by ZoFreX »

cubano wrote: post #27

Here is my personal experience with the fringes of this issue over a lifetime of watching it play out before my eyes... If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting". If not, the same actions are often considered "creepy", "jerkish", and yes even "sexist". I think its just human nature to perceive things in this way, and since women grow up in s…

My experience is different. This meme gets repeated a lot on the internet, but it jars with the stories I hear from my friends.

Yes, someone not attractive is more likely to be considered creepy - but that's correlation, not causation. Being creepy is extremely unattractive!

An example, which is by no means an outlier: A friend of mine met a man. The man is very attractive, in the particular way that the woman in this story likes, and they had some key common interests. She was extremely attracted to him in short order.

Then he did something creepy. Bam, not attractive anymore. There was no immunity conferred by the other attractive qualities - being creepy was unattractive enough that he was no longer considered attractive.

It is a rather sad fact that many... "socially less capable" people can be a bit oblivious of how their actions seem to other people, and the dividing line between flirty and creepy. Without the necessary skills to tell the difference, it does appear that this distinction is arbitrary, or predicated on other variables (e.g. visual attractiveness).

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#122

Post by etiene »

cubano wrote: post #27

Here is my personal experience with the fringes of this issue over a lifetime of watching it play out before my eyes... If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting". If not, the same actions are often considered "creepy", "jerkish", and yes even "sexist". I think its just human nature to perceive things in this way, and since women grow up in s…

Just a heads up about flirting. The same thing could be said the other way around. The fact alone that a guy is flirting is not the reason it might be considered creepy or jerkish. It's the fact that they do it anyway when the woman is _visibly_ uncomfortable / trying to be alone / not interested or worse, when they keep flirting even after hearing a solid no. If a woman did that, you'd say to the very least that she's annoying. It's called _unwanted_ attention for a reason.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#123

Post by etiene »

ZoFreX wrote: post #121
cubano wrote: post #27

Here is my personal experience with the fringes of this issue over a lifetime of watching it play out before my eyes... If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting". If not, the same actions are often considered "creepy", "jerkish", and yes even "sexist". I think its just human nature to perceive things in this way, and since women grow up in s…

My experience is different. This meme gets repeated a lot on the internet, but it jars with the stories I hear from my friends. Yes, someone not attractive is more likely to be considered creepy - but that's correlation, not causation. Being creepy is extremely unattractive! An example, which is by no means an outlier: A friend of mine met a man. The man is very attractive, in the particular way that the woman in thi…

I agree with this, this happened to me quite a few times

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#124

Post by meowface »

coldpie wrote: post #117
meowface wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a woman, but if I were one, I think I'd be pretty irritated if I was given special privileges or encouragement over male peers to "help me succeed" or something. That seems condescending and unfair.

I understand what you're saying, but it is a bit more complicated than that. Affirmative action is about leveling an unlevel playing field by giving preferential treatment to those who are on the lower side of the playing field, even if they're "less qualified" than those on the higher end of the field. Yes, when viewed on the micro scale without a picture of the whole field, it may seem "unfair," but that's precisel…

It is certainly a difficult subject. I understand the good intentions of affirmative action, but I think they cause more harm than good in the long run. To be passed up for a position due to your gender or race, or for a company to hire someone with lower technical qualifications than they'd normally accept due to gender or race, creates a lot of resentment and cultural issues. This isn't just negative opinions at the microscale; it creates a large-scale perception that certain companies or industries are giving preferential treatment, even at the expense of their own productivity and cohesion. Already I see a lot of people complaining about this on various websites, though it's probably overexaggerated a bit given that diversity quotas aren't that popular with US companies relative to many European countries (yet).

Even worse, it also might encourage more division and more prejudice towards those minority groups. If a company gives preferential treatment to hiring women, then what are many coworkers going to inevitably think when a woman makes a mistake or something? "You only got hired here because you're a woman." And in that case, they actually have some empirical backing for that assumption. I don't belong to a minority group, but I feel like the anxiety of other people wondering or believing I only (or primarily) got into a certain place because of my gender or race, and not my qualifications, would be very uncomfortable and demotivating. Some people may already think that even when it's plainly not true, but a lot more people will think it if it starts becoming more true more often. Not to mention, on top of that, fear that maybe I'm not that great and my gender/race really was a major factor in my hiring decision. Talk about imposter syndrome.

Also, just on a more general ethical note: People in certain groups have indeed been treated very unfairly for centuries, but flipping the table feels kind of "eye for an eye".

Of course unconscious biases are a major problem and will probably be impossible to get rid of or ignore during a hiring process, but I think blind hiring procedures (no name, gender, age, etc. listed on resume or during the first stages of initial online interviews) are an all around better option. I think if organizations work hard enough, they can eliminate a lot of these issues in the pipeline. If, hypothetically, an equal number of male and female candidates make it through the blind stages, but many more men make it through the following stages, they can look at it and quickly determine if they have a problem that needs addressing.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#125

Post by Lawtonfogle »

facepalm wrote: post #12
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #6

Sexism is not "over-rated" OECD's Social Institutions and Gender Index Is at http://www.genderindex.org , and is a litany of baked in prejudice, violence, lack of access to education, lack of access to property and other normal legal rights. When we compare the lot of a 16 yo girl in Rwanda to a High schooler in SF, yes it is hard to find where the High schooler is having problems, but we just have to look at the rat…

I find it a bit funny that they call it a "gender index", but it really just cares about discrimination against women. Way to go... Are girls equally likely as men to be recruited as child soldiers? Presumably their statistics won't show it... Also I think access of women to education in the third world might be a good indicator of economic and health care in those countries, not necessarily discrimination. If women…

>I find it a bit funny that they call it a "gender index", but it really just cares about discrimination against women.

Find all issues where women are worse off than men. Create an index to compare places all over the world. Update the index to remove areas where women are no longer worse off than men and to add any new ones where they are.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#126

Post by kelukelugames »

golergka wrote: post #48

> It’s impossible to know, especially since they don’t know either! If you confront them on their sexism, they will deny all of it, and truly believe it. It takes a lot of introspection to see one’s internalized stereotypes. Therefore, a lot of the time, you cannot be sure if you have experienced sexist behavior, and there is no way to find out for sure, since the perpetrator doesn’t know either. There are many false…

My co worker accuses other people of being "tone deaf" and then makes dick jokes. I have about a million examples of this. Of course, some of those stories are about me. :P

People are too unwilling to admit and learn from their own mistakes.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#127

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

douche wrote: post #98
burkaman wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you suspect that?

Because Europe is a socialist, progressive paradise, full to the brim with sunshine and unicorns! /s

Well, it's definitely more socialist than the US, on average, that's true. The United States certainly fares worse than most of the key players in Europe in this regard:

http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2015/ran...

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#128

Post by ulikunkel »

cubano wrote: post #27

Here is my personal experience with the fringes of this issue over a lifetime of watching it play out before my eyes... If a female is attracted to the guy, things he says or does are considered "cute", "flirtatious", and/or "interesting". If not, the same actions are often considered "creepy", "jerkish", and yes even "sexist". I think its just human nature to perceive things in this way, and since women grow up in s…

I agree. And any guy can be "creepy". It doesn't matter how attractive he might be to other females. It is just how the mating game works.

Men should learn not to pursue office relationships. They are almost always a bad idea. Don't shit where you eat.

Re: My positive experience as a woman in tech

#130

Post by gvb »

gotchange wrote: post #103
indifferentalex wrote: post #19

10/10 Will read again. The sexism debate has indeed painted a bleak picture, people so often try to show a different side of the picture but end up using the wrong words or simply adding ambiguity to the discussion, most of the time only making the matter more complicated, and worst of all, pulling us even further from a potential solution. This one showed us not only a potential solution, but also proved it's effect…

> but simply by people treating others (women included) nicely, or as my first grade teacher taught me, by following the golden rule, treat others the way you want to be treated, So, no more "ladies first" and gentleman treatment for women?

The golden rule requires you to be courteous regardless of gender. For instance, when you reach the door first, hold it open for the others, regardless of their gender.
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