Chemical clears Alzheimer's protein and restores memory in mice • Hacker News Board

Re: Chemical clears Alzheimer's protein and restores memory in mice

#121

Post by plg » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 8:02 PM UTC

sliverstorm wrote: post #108

pbnjay wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mice are ~30% similar genetically to humans, so a surprising amount of transfers. Rats are a bit more similar IIRC, but mice breed quicker so it's easier to do bigger studies... Source: Used to work in mouse research on addiction (alcohol, cocaine, nicotine, etc). Edit: This link gives even more specifics on the similarity: https://www.genome.gov/10001345 -- 30% is probably accurate, but in terms of function, it's ev…

30% similar? Didn't we find that bananas share 50% of genes with humans?

that would explain a lot

Re: Chemical clears Alzheimer's protein and restores memory in mice

#122

Post by austinjp » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 8:03 PM UTC

wobbleblob wrote: post #118

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #46

This is heartening news; if not a cure, at least it suggests a promising avenue for future research into this terrible condition. This LiveScience[1] article is an easily read summary that also mentions a critique of the approach. Given the unfortunate history[2][3] of falsified Korean scientific research, it would be prudent to withhold judgment until these results have been reproduced in other labs around the world…

Ever since a family member was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, I've been paying attention to reports like these. Every other year, there is a paper about a major breakthrough, and surely a cure should be just around the corner any time now. Every few years there is a paper that claims that we now finally know what causes the disease, and every time it's something different, and every time you never hear of a followup. It…

Yup, I feel that.

Re: Chemical clears Alzheimer's protein and restores memory in mice

#123

Post by heimatau » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 8:03 PM UTC

heimatau wrote: post #44

Ginkgo Biloba [1] is very solid at helping preventing Alzheimer's, even in some cases slowing it down when it's already occurring. Lots of research on the benefits of Ginkgo. Yet most don't know about it. [1] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=ginkgo+biloba+alzheimer+site%3A.ed...

Well, I guess everyone loves ideas that re-enforce their own personal beliefs, instead of looking [1] up [2] the various [3] studies that prove this, all you had to do was click through five links and you'd have enough information to dismantle these very common, but unscientific, perspectives. No worries. I'll do the work for you guys since many are just lazy. Here are a handful [4, 5] of sources.

It's pretty clear that Gingko DOES work. Low doses (120mg), don't. But that's why I linked to the plethora of research to look into the matter.

Finally, source four just makes me laugh because it's clear as day from UMM, that Gingko does work. Also, there are many many more sources that speak to the benefits of Gingko for cognitive repair and slowing down decay. Please don't limit this discussion to the five I listed, hence why I originally linked to search results.

Sources (with brief snippets of importance):

[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26268332 "Ginkgo biloba is potentially beneficial for the improvement of cognitive function, activities of daily living, and global clinical assessment in patients with mild cognitive impairment or Alzheimer's disease."

[2] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12244890 "Metaanalysis in the indication--demential disorders--comparing Ginkgo biloba versus acetylcholinesterase inhibitors have shown a similar clinical efficacy of both therapy regimens with an additional drug safety benefit for Ginkgo. Due to the clinical efficacy the WHO accepted Ginkgo biloba as an antidementiv drug and add it in January 2000 into the recent ATC-Classification Index."

[3] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0072541/ "The studies showed that people who took the higher dose of the ginkgo extract (240 mg per day) were better able to perform daily activities again, like doing household chores or washing themselves."

[4] http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb/ginkgo-biloba "Ginkgo is widely used in Europe for treating dementia. At first, doctors thought it helped because it improves blood flow to the brain. Now research suggests it may protect nerve cells that are damaged in Alzheimer disease. Several studies show that ginkgo has a positive effect on memory and thinking in people with Alzheimer disease or vascular dementia."

[5] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12519586 "Overall there is promising evidence of improvement in cognition and function associated with Ginkgo. "

Re: Chemical clears Alzheimer's protein and restores memory in mice

#124

Post by tptacek » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 8:30 PM UTC

Zigurd wrote: post #119

tptacek wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many of those people would trade the portfolio of medications available today for those available in 1955?

Nobody, of course. But would you prefer not to have drugs of dubious effectiveness marketed like consumer products? It's not an either or choice.

I would definitely prefer not to have chemical compounds that haven't been demonstrated effective marketed as consumer medical products. I'm not sure how that connects to the thread, though.

Re: Chemical clears Alzheimer's protein and restores memory in mice

#125

Post by CamperBob2 » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 8:33 PM UTC

wobbleblob wrote: post #118

blisterpeanuts wrote: post #46

This is heartening news; if not a cure, at least it suggests a promising avenue for future research into this terrible condition. This LiveScience[1] article is an easily read summary that also mentions a critique of the approach. Given the unfortunate history[2][3] of falsified Korean scientific research, it would be prudent to withhold judgment until these results have been reproduced in other labs around the world…

Ever since a family member was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, I've been paying attention to reports like these. Every other year, there is a paper about a major breakthrough, and surely a cure should be just around the corner any time now. Every few years there is a paper that claims that we now finally know what causes the disease, and every time it's something different, and every time you never hear of a followup. It…

When you realize that pretty much every disease and condition has similar papers written about it, you start to realize that the way we do medical research is pretty messed up.

Keep in mind that they still haven't really decided whether salt is bad for you or not, or what the real effects of dietary cholesterol are. Widespread conditions that should be much easier to research and understand than Alzheimer's are still very controversial.

Re: Chemical clears Alzheimer's protein and restores memory in mice

#126

Post by blisterpeanuts » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 8:36 PM UTC

celticninja wrote: post #93

irishloop wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more of a generalization of the Korean scientific community, of which most Koreans are not a part.

It is an unfair generalisation in both cases. The wiki list of scientific fraud examples is very heavy on US examples.

What's the ratio of U.S. scientists to Korean scientists? 10:1 or so? I would expect to see 10x as many fraud cases in the U.S.

But there have been some doozies in Korean science, especially the stem cell guy who really embarrassed and shamed his country with the extent of deception he practiced. Brilliant, but also crazy.

Re: Chemical clears Alzheimer's protein and restores memory in mice

#127

Post by logfromblammo » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 8:44 PM UTC

warfangle wrote: post #117

PixelB wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Mouse models are rapidly becoming obsolete as it's becoming easier than ever to model entire, differentiated tissues grown from red blood cell-derived adult stem cells. No they aren't. Transgenic mouse models are a $billion industry. We do not understand biological mechanisms nearly enough to not use live animal models. We are not even able to recreate single cell organisms with our level of knowledge and engineeri…

Not only that .... chopping off heads isn't how mice are terminated, from what I've been told by someone who worked in fetal development research on mice.

I always assumed that the sacrifice method depended on the research. You might liquefy them in a centrifuge, or pith them with a probe, or asphyxiate them in pure gaseous nitrogen, or flash freeze them in liquid nitrogen. Whatever makes sense for the study.

But if the animals in question are not part of the study at all, I don't see how it matters much. Maybe there's a little mouse guillotine. Maybe one person on the team owns a reptile pet that is very well fed. The reason why rodent models are used in the first place is that they're mammals, easy to care for, breed, and handle, and no one really cares if they die by the millions.

If they were outside the lab, they would likely get poisoned or crushed by snap traps. (That's better than what a cat would do.) Cuteness won't save you from my wrath if you eat my food and then poop in whatever you left behind. At least the ones that died in the labs had real jobs, instead of living hedonistic freeloader lifestyles inside someone else's couch.

Re: Chemical clears Alzheimer's protein and restores memory in mice

#128

Post by termain » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 8:45 PM UTC

zeristor wrote: post #97

termain wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err.... NASA software, yes. No Mars probes yet. Yeah, I know, I know.

I really need to be less sarcastic.

It was the perfect comment.

Re: Chemical clears Alzheimer's protein and restores memory in mice

#129

Post by CWuestefeld » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 9:00 PM UTC

CamperBob2 wrote: post #125

wobbleblob wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever since a family member was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, I've been paying attention to reports like these. Every other year, there is a paper about a major breakthrough, and surely a cure should be just around the corner any time now. Every few years there is a paper that claims that we now finally know what causes the disease, and every time it's something different, and every time you never hear of a followup. It…

When you realize that pretty much every disease and condition has similar papers written about it, you start to realize that the way we do medical research is pretty messed up. Keep in mind that they still haven't really decided whether salt is bad for you or not, or what the real effects of dietary cholesterol are. Widespread conditions that should be much easier to research and understand than Alzheimer's are still…

you start to realize that the way we do medical research is pretty messed up.

The way the media reports on research (not just medical) is really messed up.

Re: Chemical clears Alzheimer's protein and restores memory in mice

#130

Post by CamperBob2 » Thu, Dec 17, 2015, 9:04 PM UTC

CWuestefeld wrote: post #129

CamperBob2 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you realize that pretty much every disease and condition has similar papers written about it, you start to realize that the way we do medical research is pretty messed up. Keep in mind that they still haven't really decided whether salt is bad for you or not, or what the real effects of dietary cholesterol are. Widespread conditions that should be much easier to research and understand than Alzheimer's are still…

you start to realize that the way we do medical research is pretty messed up. The way the media reports on research (not just medical) is really messed up.

Both are true, IMHO, again returning to the dietary salt/cholesterol example. It is easy to point to peer-reviewed literature that backs up any point of view you want to take.

The scientific community needs to get its own act together before criticizing the popular media. Few other scientific disciplines are less reliable than medical research, and even fewer are more important.