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Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

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121–130 of 338 posts

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#121

I find that the most anti-intellectualism, cheap-shot emotional abuse, and stereotyping on the Internet is motivated by moral sentiments through online pseudo "activists" who are really working out their anger and self-esteem issues under the supposed imprimatur of one cause or another. This goes for select subsets of both ends of the political spectrum, and select subgroups on both sides of any hot-button issue. Att…

> This goes for select subsets of both ends of the political spectrum, and select subgroups on both sides of any hot-button issue. This is fucking garbage. It's garbage because the status quo isn't neutral, the status quo isn't necessarily just, and actually, the status quo is upheld with lots and lots of violence that isn't considered controversial. For example, France is clamping down really hard on civil liberties…

The point is that it's a massive, massive joke for anyone to distinguish themself from this group of people who engage in 'intellectually malformed pseudo-activism' because there are no apolitical stances and being complicit members of societies that shape the world through incredible violence is no different a hypocritical perversion of morality as anyone who rustles your jimmies on the fucking Internet.

So, if I understand your point correctly, it's that the world is so mired in the use of violence, that logical discourse, a respect for facts, and the avoidance of mental patterns of hate is pointless hypocrisy because everyone is essentially either already guilty of being part of the violence or on the receiving end of it. Therefore, there are no moral limits on the behavior or speech of the victims and those who claim to be siding with them.

Strangely enough, such an ideology could just as well justify the actions of groups like ISIS as much as your "rustling of jimmies" on the Internet. And by this, I am not merely tarring your idea by association. The logical structure of it is essentially identical to the ideology of groups who adopt tactics commonly called "terrorism." The magnitude of the evil of one party doesn't give free reign to the victims. That can only lead to an eye for an eye.

Outrage is a powerful force. It can be harnessed for good as well as evil. So whether outrage is being harnessed for good, or whether it has become the "tail wagging the dog" using the cover of a pseudo-activism like a parasitic host to create more outrage is an important distinction. I would posit that a clear sign of this is a concern for morality in the conduct of activism, a concern for morality and fairness in its communications, and a clarity of moral understanding in its teachings. What's more, the immorality of "the oppressors" cannot modify the moral requirements of the activism in a way that renders the activism indistinguishable from the oppressors.

Lastly: From the tenor of your comment, it would seem that my writings have touched a nerve.

EDIT: It further occurs to me -- Activism must inherently contain some measure of extra-legality. Often it contains some small element of violence. Even holding hands to block stock brokers from entering a building for an extra 3 seconds is technically an act of violence. However, these actions are carefully considered in an overall moral framework. The care with which actions are considered and taken must be much like the care taken by surgeons. While it can well be energized by outrage, it is the very last sort of thing which should be ruled and guided by outrage.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article is missing the forest for the trees. It assumes morality is relative. Morality is the product of the intersection of narrative and mythology on a group. Morality is the story a particular group (or civilization) is enacting: the program they're executing. All groups hold myths. Even atheist groups hold myths. They just think their myths are just "the world" or "reality" or "how we got here". Civilizations…

Civilizations that have (generally) destructive, punitive, insular, judging, self-righteous, and violent myths don't. This seems to be the opposite of history. Until recently, violence was one of the only ways for any civilization to persist. The advent of nuclear weapons changed that somewhat (but not if civilizations begin to use them). And most of the myths of a civilization seem to be a byproduct of their actions…

Case in point: Nassim Taleb, The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dominance of the Stubborn Minority

http://fooledbyrandomness.com/minority.pdf

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#123
post #100
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make any sense. "There should always be something higher than your ideals and goals" is a contradiction; if there were something higher, it'd become your ideal or goal. It seems especially incongruous to suggest that I should be putting other people's ideals over my own. Just how would you propose anybody accomplish such a thing? How is anybody supposed to make the best possible decisions when they are t…

"There should always be something higher than your ideals and goals" is a contradiction; if there were something higher, it'd become your ideal or goal. It's only a contradiction if you're aware of what that higher something is. Part of humility is realizing there are things you don't know. Your ideals and goals are imperfect, and will change over your lifetime. Why didn't you choose the "highest" ideals to begin wit…

You can't make decisions based on information you don't have.

An unknown ideal is not "higher" -- it's unknown -- as in, you don't actually know that it's "higher," and you couldn't do anything about it even if it were. You certainly can't believe in the unknown.

"Pursuit of the unknown" is not itself an unknown ideal. You should look for new information. That's not a mystery, that's an ideal you can have right now. If you think there's a better ideal than that, then I don't know what to tell you.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#124
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This goes for select subsets of both ends of the political spectrum, and select subgroups on both sides of any hot-button issue. This is fucking garbage. It's garbage because the status quo isn't neutral, the status quo isn't necessarily just, and actually, the status quo is upheld with lots and lots of violence that isn't considered controversial. For example, France is clamping down really hard on civil liberties…

The principle of relativity is for velocities not morality.

So, do you have an objective source of morality for us to refer to?

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#125
post #9

> because most gun violence is not committed by people with mental health problems. Rather, it is committed by people who feel they are morally right in committing that act. Is there a reason that delusions of morality don't count as a mental health issue? I don't see these things being mutually exclusive.

> Is there a reason that delusions of morality don't count as a mental health issue? It's a bit dangerous if you start defining deviations from group norms; which is what delusions of morality would look like from within a group; as mental health issues without some moderating factor. Under those conditions the person who expresses, 'Maybe we shouldn't kill her just because she left the faith,' is mentally ill within…

I've been trying to come up with a response to this and keep ending up in a rabbit hole of thought.

Ultimately what I feel is that we can step away from the micro image of religious and cultural influences, and actually look at what is right for all of humanity. We have a pretty decent system for that in what the world considers "basic human rights"

I would argue that an honor killing culture is by definition mentally ill. Of course I may be a fairly shit point of view for this, because I ultimately believe that all religion is a form of mental illness. It's not a popular opinion, but I maintain it.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#126
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case, "sin" doesn't quite mean "not being Christian enough." Other religions (and ethics in general) often advocate very similar behaviors, so it wouldn't be surprising to see a Christian who is more of a sinner than a non-Christian. The argument is that violence comes when someone has convinced themselves that they are already righteous enough to override the sin inherent in the violence.

I think it's more than that. It's when the logic of their position means that the violence is right . (In doing so, they usually go off the deep end even within the framework of their chosen ethic...)

Or even that their lack of violence is wrong. Its the old "if youre not for me, then youre against me" view.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#127
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when confronted with someone violently harming defenseless children in your care? Some believe violence is wrong even then, others believe pacifism is wrong then.

My morals don't necessarily match up with what I would do in certain situations.

That's like saying you don't believe in monsters, yet refusing to open the closet. Your morals match exactly what you would do. What you say about your morals doesn't. What you are is what you do, after all, not what you imagine yourself to be.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#128
post #123
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There should always be something higher than your ideals and goals" is a contradiction; if there were something higher, it'd become your ideal or goal. It's only a contradiction if you're aware of what that higher something is. Part of humility is realizing there are things you don't know. Your ideals and goals are imperfect, and will change over your lifetime. Why didn't you choose the "highest" ideals to begin wit…

You can't make decisions based on information you don't have. An unknown ideal is not "higher" -- it's unknown -- as in, you don't actually know that it's "higher," and you couldn't do anything about it even if it were. You certainly can't believe in the unknown. "Pursuit of the unknown" is not itself an unknown ideal. You should look for new information. That's not a mystery, that's an ideal you can have right now.…

[deleted]

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#129
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The principle of relativity is for velocities not morality.

So, do you have an objective source of morality for us to refer to?

Most human beings and human societies agree on the same general points of morality.

    - Killing -- Try really, really hard not to do this!
    - Lying -- Please try really, really hard not to do this!
Or there's George Carlin's formulation: "Really try hard to not be a jerk!" I think everyone has a pretty good idea of what this means, and most people agree on the broad outlines. The devil is in the details, of course. Then there's "Love thy neighbor as thyself." A pretty good general principle that most would agree on in the broad outlines. Again: Devil is in the details.

But the points I am making in these comments aren't really about details. In the broad outlines of morality, when someone starts proclaiming loudly that they are justified in being a jerk -- it's time to start getting very skeptical! This applies just as well to people, governments, and "activist" groups.

And by all means, please take some time to be a bit skeptical about yourself! Again, this applies just as well to people, governments, and "activist" groups.

Re: Most violence in the world is motivated by moral sentiments

#130
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>which has given you the mistaken belief that it makes up a large portion of activism. but, the point made was that no causes are free of it, but neither are they made up entirely of it. (it being "intellectually malformed pseudo-activisism" in this case) I don't think anyone said it makes up a large portion of activism, or even implied it.

I don't think anyone said it makes up a large portion of activism, or even implied it. However, such pseudo-activism makes enough noise, that I have seen the following: There are young people out there that have labeled in their minds some pretty unsavory activities as being somehow noble or intellectually worthy. There are young people out there who believe such shallow notions, like that the use of certain phrases…

What are some causes that you personally agree with but think are marred by hateivism?
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