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Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

piketty.blog.lemonde.fr

121–130 of 183 posts

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#121
post #58

The cause of ISIS is Islamic extremism. Not income inequality. Not climate change. Islamic extremism. Those who claim otherwise are merely playing politics to advance political agendas. Sam Harris, the well-known atheist author and speaker, describes such people well[0]: "These people are part of what [Muslim reformist] Maajid Nawaz has termed the “regressive Left”—pseudo-liberals who are so blinded by identity polit…

> To say the problem with ISIS is anything other than Islamic extremism is a red herring.

This assertion seems obviously false. ISIS isn't suddenly "better" because they are killing in the name of something other than "Islamic extremism." There are also plenty of extreme right-wing muslims who don't kill people, which also suggests that a generic diagnosis of "islamic extremism" is not enough to explain ISIS.

If you /really/ believe ISIS is powered by a fervent belief in fundamentalist Islam and nothing else, then there are no remedies other than killing every member of the group as their rhetoric inescapably leads to the conclusion they should kill everyone who disagrees with them. Of course, to believe that, you also have to believe previous groups that espoused philosophies with similar conclusions (Al' Qaeda, etc) were lying - as we haven't kill all of their members and their terrorist & militant activities have fallen off. If all muslim extremists are driven solely by personal belief in islamic extremism, we would never expect them to change their behavior.

But people do change! All the time. So, even if you believe that all extremely right-wing muslims want to kill everyone all the time (a preposition I find hard to believe myself), you should also see that some (most I would say) muslim extremists choose not to kill most of the people most of the time. If we want to save as many lives as possible we should, while we push back against the intellectual garbage of extreme Islam, should also work to understand the factors that cause some extremists to kill and others to live in relative harmony.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#122
post #77
post #58

The cause of ISIS is Islamic extremism. Not income inequality. Not climate change. Islamic extremism. Those who claim otherwise are merely playing politics to advance political agendas. Sam Harris, the well-known atheist author and speaker, describes such people well[0]: "These people are part of what [Muslim reformist] Maajid Nawaz has termed the “regressive Left”—pseudo-liberals who are so blinded by identity polit…

People who hold to your preferred cause are the only sane ones, and everyone else is "merely playing politics." Cool. Or maybe, just maybe, the real world is a little more complex than that. Maybe it is Islamic extremism and climate change and income inequality and a thousand other things all interacting with each other. I don't doubt that Piketty is using ISIS to advance his agenda, because that's what people do. Ev…

There's actually lots of really important actions that get mostly ignored precisely because saying that this is related to religion is politically incorrect.

1. The West should more publicly defend the people who stand to gain most from a decrease of religiosity in Muslim majority countries: women, intellectuals, gays, etc. Those are the people who have a self-interest in reform, and thus are most likely to actually try.

2. In Europe in particular there should be a bigger emphasis on religion in education; particularly education about different religions and about atheism.

3. Any immigrants and refugees should get personal and very intense help to integrate into European society, and gaining a European passport should be tied to achievement of those goals.

4. Salafist and Wahhabist organisations should be banned, and any money coming from Saudia Arabia and other Gulf states investigated.

etc.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#123
Here we go again.

Once the obvious cause (religion) has been eliminated, whatever remains, however unlikely must be the truth.

Except the obvious has only been eliminated in his analysis because of a dogmatic belief in human/religious/cultural equality (module disadvantages caused by economics and western foreign policy).

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#124
post #105
post #81

I'm going to have to go with Mohammed on this one, look him up, he's the picture of ISIS, child rapist, murderer, enslaver, and all around shitty guy. Most Muslims realize he's not someone to be emulated, ever. Also, it takes a lot of citizens producing surpluses in support of these ideals to field an effective army of any size, so not all Muslims can be members of the ISIS Army most have to settle for paying taxes,…

Actually, most Muslims do not realize that Muhammad is not somebody to be emulated. They are simply unaware of who he really was, or use creative interpretation similar to how Christians interpret the Old Testament.

Having grown up in a Mennonite community I'm sadly very well aware of how uninformed most Christians are about what the bible says.

My favorite was catching shit in a passive aggressive manner about my tongue piercing and then thanking the elder for bringing his concerns about his wife and daughters ear piercings to the group for discussion, as surely he was not pointing out the spec in someone's eye while ignoring the log in his own, and then wondering whether this proscription from Leviticus on piercings also meant that we should no longer consume pork as we certainly did not want to be one of those pick and choose Christians who only listen to the parts of the bible they like.

Needless to say a lot of people we're very pissed at me that day.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#125

I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth. ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia. They say this every time they attack us. Yet (mostly on the left) we keep coming up with reasons why this isn't the case. "No, actually, you're not attacking us for that reason, really it's our fault because we gave the oil to…

The mistake you're making in your analogy is comparing a group of people to a single person. ISIS is not one united front, and most of the people who actually fight -- not the leaders making videos, but the people doing the killing -- do so for much less grandiose reasons.

Casting the rise of ISIS as a black-and-white, good-vs.-evil struggle allows some very clever politicians to have their way: torture some folks, spy on citizens. But if we look deeper at the situation, we'll see that motivations are more complex. In doing so, however, we (the West) must confront our role in the situation.

"For the first time since he came into the room he smiles—in surprise—and finally tells us what really motivated him, without any prompting. He knows there is an American in the room, and can perhaps guess, from his demeanor and his questions, that this American is ex-military, and directs his “question,” in the form of an enraged statement, straight at him. “The Americans came,” he said. “They took away Saddam, but they also took away our security. I didn’t like Saddam, we were starving then, but at least we didn’t have war. When you came here, the civil war started.” [0]

[0]http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-inte...

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#126
post #110
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I won't pretend to know why everything is so fucked right now but I will make 2 points: 1) In general, the people actually doing the killings are far removed from the organization's leadership. Here's an interesting piece on individual Isis fighters: http://www.thenation.com/article/what-i-discovered-from-inte... 2) Usually when someone is upset, they're very bad at articulating the actual thing that is upsetting the…

2) is not true. Violence committed because of islam has been pretty steady since the end of WW1 and was much higher before that.

No, it has increased a lot. This is a Dutch newspaper, but you should be able to read the graphs: http://static1.volkskrant.nl/static/nmc/red/frameset/2015/te...

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#127
post #58

The cause of ISIS is Islamic extremism. Not income inequality. Not climate change. Islamic extremism. Those who claim otherwise are merely playing politics to advance political agendas. Sam Harris, the well-known atheist author and speaker, describes such people well[0]: "These people are part of what [Muslim reformist] Maajid Nawaz has termed the “regressive Left”—pseudo-liberals who are so blinded by identity polit…

> To say the problem with ISIS is anything other than Islamic extremism is a red herring. This assertion seems obviously false. ISIS isn't suddenly "better" because they are killing in the name of something other than "Islamic extremism." There are also plenty of extreme right-wing muslims who don't kill people, which also suggests that a generic diagnosis of "islamic extremism" is not enough to explain ISIS. If you…

> Of course, to believe that, you also have to believe previous groups that espoused philosophies with similar conclusions (Al' Qaeda, etc) were lying - as we haven't kill all of their members and their terrorist & militant activities have fallen off.

Well, to be fair, for part of the time al-Qaeda was dominant in the threat list, the group now calling itself "the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant" was calling itself "al-Qaeda in Iraq".

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#128
post #17

Let's call it a contributing factor and make the headline less insane.

Yes, please stop publishing these ridiculous headlines that seem to be used just to incite political arguments for clicks and ad revenue.

Where did this headline even come from?

The original headline is "Le tout-sécuritaire ne suffira pas" which they translated as "Clamping down with law and order will not be enough" (which looks like a good translation to me). The linked Washington Post article is titled "This might be the most controversial theory for what’s behind the rise of ISIS." Yet on HN it's called, "Thomas Piketty: Income inequality is behind the rise of Islamic State." Was something changed, or did the person who posted this decide to make up something that would incite controversy?

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#129
post #58

The cause of ISIS is Islamic extremism. Not income inequality. Not climate change. Islamic extremism. Those who claim otherwise are merely playing politics to advance political agendas. Sam Harris, the well-known atheist author and speaker, describes such people well[0]: "These people are part of what [Muslim reformist] Maajid Nawaz has termed the “regressive Left”—pseudo-liberals who are so blinded by identity polit…

Okay, and why is Islamic extremism taking root and spreading? It's like a body, you've got loads of bacteria all over your body, including some nasty MRSA stuff on your skin. This isn't normally a problem. But sometimes something can trigger a situation where the bad bacteria can spread and literally eat your body. ISIS would be a footnote in an odd corner of the world if it weren't for favorable conditions for them…

Ok. How about "because the states stopping them were sabotaged by external actors". In Iraq's case pretty obvious. From a local's perspective, here's what the US did :

1) remove nationalists from power by destroying all infrastructure. They sucked, but they sucked for everybody and they weren't nearly as bad as religous muslims.

2) jobs ... gone. Money ... gone (or gone soon). Family ... partially gone. Tribe ... partially gone. Security forces replaced by US troops, who don't speak the language.

3) this situation persists for years.

4) (for Sunni's, Christians, ...) US replaces security forces (suddenly) with an army exclusively formed by a religious grouping that Sunni's are attacking wherever they can (Bahrain, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Afghanistan ...) who are looking for revenge.

5) These new security forces come in, US forces don't keep them in check, then suddenly abandon everyone. This sort of stuff becomes commonplace : http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-03-11/shiite-mili...

6) several tens of thousands of people that this happened to were soldiers.

So why is islamic extremism spreading ? For Iraq, you have the answer above this sentence. For Europe/America the answer is different. It is not spreading within the older generation, people who fled the middle east. It is spreading within the youth. How ? Well :

1) schools, bankrolled from Saudi Arabia and Turkey teach islamic supremacism to the kids of immigrant muslims.

2) western european states do token cleanups of these schools every 10 years or so, but not fast enough to make them stop.

3) these kids are not educated to the level even bad local schools educate local youngsters. At 18, they are suddenly abandoned, and quickly find out that no job, no family (not possible without job), no car, no status symbols, ... sucks

4) furthermore. Suddenly islamic supremacism educated kids finds society (including muslims) shun them, or worse. Why ? They have no decent skills, and because of the supremacism thing they are prone to violence.

5) they subsist on welfare for a while, generally causing trouble around them and little else.

6) someone offers them a purpose. "Free" brides (ie. kidnapped women and children. Like most muslim scholars, daesh sees nothing wrong with forced marriage at 6, after all the prophet did it. Makes you wonder how "normal" muslims morally deal with that). A state and police force that supports the supremacism and a free ride over. Oh and a monthly paycheck that more or less matches local welfare checks and what you might call life insurance.

The biggest thing stopping them: daesh has a reputation for getting people killed and abandoning them.

Let's get real here : if the US did the same to a Western European country it did to Iraq, there'd be isis/daesh territory in the middle of Western Europe, no doubt.

Also let's face facts here, and scale the problem. Daesh/islam will not be recruiting really large amounts of muslims from the western world. But it is growing : these people will cause a civil war in Europe unless the situation changes.

Re: Thomas Piketty: Clamping down with law and order will not be enough

#130

I don't understand why we shouldn't believe what's coming straight out of ISIS' mouth. ISIS has said they're killing us because of their interpretation of a book written in the first millennia. They say this every time they attack us. Yet (mostly on the left) we keep coming up with reasons why this isn't the case. "No, actually, you're not attacking us for that reason, really it's our fault because we gave the oil to…

You are miss understanding what he meant. I don't think he meant to explain the reasoning used by the attackers, he is however trying to understand what caused all these people to start killing in the first place. ISIS surely feeds on religion, but the root cause of the problem is not only religion, just as the root cause of the Crusades wasn't.
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