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New species combining wolf, coyote, and dog emerges in eastern North America

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Re: New species combining wolf, coyote, and dog emerges in eastern North America

#121

Post by ChuckMcM »

dalke wrote: post #62
ChuckMcM wrote: post #17

I find these stories intriguing. Several have come together over the last decade or so, this one, the bear hunt in Florida because of too many bears, the Burmese Pythons in the Everglades eating everything, mountain lions living in many parts of the Bay Area near people, the rat explosion in NYC. All wildlife finding a niche in the urban and suburban world we've created and retaking territory originally ceded during…

The Burmese Pythons in the Everglades don't fit your pattern. The Everglades is neither urban nor suburban, the pythons live in areas that were never really settled by people, and of course the pythons are not native so are not 'retaking'. And it's hard to say anything about NYC's rat problem as there are no good estimates of the rat population. The generally held belief has been one rat per person, but a statisticia…

Your point about the rats is well taken. It does make for good click bait and over exposure serves multiple interests beyond simply informing the public.

I worry about the homeless as a vulnerable population who is disproportionately threatened by wildlife in an urban setting. Whether it is from plague carrying fleas on rats running around an encampment or a group of coywolves or a mountain lion deciding that this particular human sleeping under a bush in a park might be prey.

Re: New species combining wolf, coyote, and dog emerges in eastern North America

#122

Post by rwhitman »

robbrown451 wrote: post #41
rwhitman wrote: post #40

In eastern Los Angeles, coyotes are everywhere , to the point where in some areas you run into them constantly day or night. They're stealthy - silent and very calculating. You can tell many of them are part domestic dog and they don't seem phased by proximity to people and appear to understand the workings of the city to some extent. I have seen the mentioned looking both ways when crossing roads, and also use of si…

If they are really as stealthy as you say, the last thing they will do is be aggressive toward humans. From an evolutionary perspective, I can't imagine a worse strategy than hunting and eating humans.

The thing is, coyotes aren't aggressive. Or particularly destructive either. They have the benign appearance and demeanor of shy dogs. It would take a lot of effort to witness a coyote being violent. As prey, you'd likely never see a coyote being aggressive towards you until you're being jumped by the pack. So in most situations there's no evidence they are anything but cute and harmless. That's their adaptation.

Re: New species combining wolf, coyote, and dog emerges in eastern North America

#123

Post by GigabyteCoin »

anon4 wrote: post #108
GigabyteCoin wrote: post #31

So this is why we have been noticing exponentially more "coyotes" roaming around the suburbs of the GTA recently? My girlfriend was walking our dog last week and saw 3 of them within an hour. The next morning she saw 2. The other day I was walking the dog and some kid stopped me to warn me about a "wolf" that was growling at him around the corner. This is all within steps of our small "downtown" and I just kept think…

Pepper spray? Are guns outlawed in Canada? Why not just shoot it on sight?

Guns are basically outlawed in Canada, yes.

You are allowed to own a handgun, but it has to be locked up 100% of the time unless you're at a gun range or out hunting with a government license.

You can own "long guns" too but that's a different and much longer story.

Still though, you're definitely not allowed to carry it around with you walking your dog and shoot any coyotes you see fit. In suburbia at least.

Re: New species combining wolf, coyote, and dog emerges in eastern North America

#124

Post by jmnicolas »

dalke wrote: post #77
jmnicolas wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh common stop putting words in my mouth ... When a specie is invasive and dangerous you thin it by removing the ones that are too close to human habitat, that's it.

Your response was to the statement by igravious, which highlighted "Sharks", "big cats", and "snakes". Two of those are not invasive species at all. Of the third, only a few species of snakes are invasive. You'll also notice that sharks have not gotten closer to human habitation in any significant way. So your response is almost irrelevant to what igravious was talking about. I assumed it was relevant, and the only w…

Do you see even what you do ? Your way of framing this argument can only lead to a fight.

Of course you have to be 2 to fight, so I'm going to be reasonable and just drop the matter. I don't NEED to be right. Have a nice day.

Re: New species combining wolf, coyote, and dog emerges in eastern North America

#125

Post by shostack »

kasey_junk wrote: post #98
GigabyteCoin wrote: post #31

So this is why we have been noticing exponentially more "coyotes" roaming around the suburbs of the GTA recently? My girlfriend was walking our dog last week and saw 3 of them within an hour. The next morning she saw 2. The other day I was walking the dog and some kid stopped me to warn me about a "wolf" that was growling at him around the corner. This is all within steps of our small "downtown" and I just kept think…

I live in the heart of Chicago, not the suburbs at all & there are coyotes all around my place. The feral cat & rabbit population has plummeted & I wouldn't leave a small dog out at night. That said they stay pretty far away from people.

Wonder what would win. Coyotes or a Chicago possum.

Re: New species combining wolf, coyote, and dog emerges in eastern North America

#126

Post by Kluny »

anon4 wrote: post #108
GigabyteCoin wrote: post #31

So this is why we have been noticing exponentially more "coyotes" roaming around the suburbs of the GTA recently? My girlfriend was walking our dog last week and saw 3 of them within an hour. The next morning she saw 2. The other day I was walking the dog and some kid stopped me to warn me about a "wolf" that was growling at him around the corner. This is all within steps of our small "downtown" and I just kept think…

Pepper spray? Are guns outlawed in Canada? Why not just shoot it on sight?

You're not allowed to discharge them in residential areas.

Re: New species combining wolf, coyote, and dog emerges in eastern North America

#127

Post by Scarblac »

stefantalpalaru wrote: post #109
dwc wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you change "species" to "population" in the parent comment everything still works.

Yes, but is it evolution or simply adaptation within an existing framework?

What would be the difference, in your view?

Re: New species combining wolf, coyote, and dog emerges in eastern North America

#128

Post by dalke »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #121
dalke wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Burmese Pythons in the Everglades don't fit your pattern. The Everglades is neither urban nor suburban, the pythons live in areas that were never really settled by people, and of course the pythons are not native so are not 'retaking'. And it's hard to say anything about NYC's rat problem as there are no good estimates of the rat population. The generally held belief has been one rat per person, but a statisticia…

Your point about the rats is well taken. It does make for good click bait and over exposure serves multiple interests beyond simply informing the public. I worry about the homeless as a vulnerable population who is disproportionately threatened by wildlife in an urban setting. Whether it is from plague carrying fleas on rats running around an encampment or a group of coywolves or a mountain lion deciding that this pa…

Sure. My comment is different. "Homeless" humans managed pretty well against lions, tigers, and bears. I think it's the defenseless you're concerned about. A house is one sort of defense. So is a car. So is a homeless encampment. So are guns and dogs. Few homeless are defenseless in the way you mean. While some people with homes are still defenseless against the threats you are worried about.

If you are concerned about plague, I think you should look more at domestic cats than homeless humans. Cats kill and eat infected rodents and pass the disease to humans. There have been 16 in the US because of that transmission mechanism. For that matter, there have bee 64 cases as a result of someone butchering or skinning an animal.

And while traditionally linked with poor sanitation leading to rat infestation, "plague in New Mexico has increasingly occurred in more affluent areas, a result of continued suburban and exurban development in enzootic plague foci." It's rich people who are helping to spread the plague these days, not the poor!

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/21/1/14-0564_article goes into more detail, and points to "performing common outdoor peridomestic work (e.g., cutting brush or chopping wood)" and "a result of contact with infected fleas that were brought into the home by indoor/outdoor pets" as the two largest vectors.

This isn't to say you shouldn't worry, only that more information might bring more focus into what you should worry about, and homelessness leading to plague should not be one of them.

(P.S. I'm an inveterate researcher. I tracked down these details in part because I enjoy it. I can totally understand how this style is outside the usual cocktail style discussion, which is all this topic really deserves, and don't expect or demand a comparable response.)

Re: New species combining wolf, coyote, and dog emerges in eastern North America

#129

Post by stefantalpalaru »

Scarblac wrote: post #127
stefantalpalaru wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but is it evolution or simply adaptation within an existing framework?

What would be the difference, in your view?

Evolution would be a change in the genetic foundation of that whole framework that makes an individual thrive in the environment. A change so big that it would ultimately lead to speciation.

Adaptation is done using existing mechanisms, with no new genetic changes besides the usual background noise. It never leads to speciation.

Re: New species combining wolf, coyote, and dog emerges in eastern North America

#130

Post by stefantalpalaru »

Amezarak wrote: post #113
stefantalpalaru wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so fast with the evolutionary fantasies. If they can breed and produce fertile offspring, are they really different species? Maybe we've got the definitions wrong somewhere.

> If they can breed and produce fertile offspring, are they really different species? Species are defined more-or-less arbitrarily. It's essentially impossible to come up with a meaningful definition of "species" because of the nature of biology. Imagine a gigantic tree, beginning with the first organism billions of years ago, with every living thing that ever existed as a node. Now, for the sake of the thought exper…

We make this classification, so we can adjust the rules until our model fits reality at an acceptable level. So let's define species as groups of individual of a similar genotype. We were not able to define and measure genetic distances in the past, but now with the ability to read whole genomes, we can do just that.

> sometimes hugely different species can interbreed and produce fertile offspring

Then they are obviously not hugely different. Were we just comparing phenotypes when we decided to classify them as different species? Let's improve on that.

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