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What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

nytimes.com

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Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#121

Post by zamalek »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #119
zamalek wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sewing kits, to me, sound kinda boring. They do to me too! However the tech industry isn't the only industry with these problems, we just talk about them more. I bought up the nurse example because it's one I'm familiar with: I dated a nurse. By the time she graduated (around 2007 I think) her academic hospital had zero, as I recall - less than 2 to be safe, male nurses. I knew some civil engineers at college, out…

> This childhood self-discrimination...needs to be fixed I'm baffled by how you can believe that individual choice can be a problem that needs to be fixed. Do you believe that people should be directed into non-traditional fields against their will? Or do you believe that they're not competent to make their own decisions?

> individual choice can be a problem that needs to be fixed.

Every comment I have written (including the root and the parent of your reply) explain how this is not what I am saying at all.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#122

Post by rewqfdsa »

Mz wrote: post #120
rewqfdsa wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have an anecdote. I don't know the timeframe for the events you described, but it's a widespread international connectivity to the internet developed much later outside the US than it did inside it, so all things being equal, I suspect there were simply more international participants available during your tenure than during the previous years. This experience may have convinced you that language policing is effe…

Well, you are, in fact, dismissing it as merely coincidence, as I predicted. Nor did I say it gets done to me because I am a woman. It does get done to me a lot. I don't know that it has anything to do with my gender. It may have more to do with the fact that I have formally and informally studied certain things about social psychology and I have well developed mental models for how these things work that most people…

Yes, I am dismissing your anecdote as mere coincidence. I can't justify on an intellectual basis doing anything else. Am I supposed to just listen and believe?

> I have formally and informally studied certain things about social psychology

Your continuing reliance on credentials isn't helping your credibility.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#123

Post by rayiner »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #103
zamalek wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an effect I forget the name of. Basically, if you give someone something and then some time later take it away they experience anger. When you give rights to one group, you have to remove them from another (important: even if the second group had rights that were not rightfully theirs). Men previously and incorrectly had exclusive access to jobs (and votes, and so forth). By giving women fair chance to those…

This article isn't talking about taking away "exclusive access to jobs" from men. It's hinting at separating geek culture from software development. Let's be honest: the two interests correlate well. You're talking about stripping many practitioners of software development from their culture. Why is that just?

> You're talking about stripping many practitioners of software development from their culture. Why is that just?

Why is it unjust? Why do you have to bring your personal interests and preferences into the workplace? Why not make a neutral workplace where different kinds of people can integrate and feel comfortable?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#124

Post by [deleted] »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #65
zamalek wrote: post #5

We've known this for a while, it boils down to: barbies. Fixing this problem is really, really hard. Assuming I gave my daughters equal access to both barbies and chemistry kits, which would they choose? Kids want to fit in with their friends. Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. What does that lead to? The child choosing their gender stereotype (applies both ways) so that they can fit in. It's what th…

Sewing kits, to me, sound kinda boring. Why not Lego for everyone? Lego is great! It stimulates creativity and you can do whatever you want with it. If you want to play with cars you can make em out of Lego. If you want to roleplay, you can make buildings and use the Lego minifigures! Doesn't that give you the best of both worlds? Heck, even if you're not interested in building your own stuff from scratch, a lot of s…

[deleted]

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#125

Post by Mz »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #122
Mz wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you are, in fact, dismissing it as merely coincidence, as I predicted. Nor did I say it gets done to me because I am a woman. It does get done to me a lot. I don't know that it has anything to do with my gender. It may have more to do with the fact that I have formally and informally studied certain things about social psychology and I have well developed mental models for how these things work that most people…

Yes, I am dismissing your anecdote as mere coincidence. I can't justify on an intellectual basis doing anything else. Am I supposed to just listen and believe? > I have formally and informally studied certain things about social psychology Your continuing reliance on credentials isn't helping your credibility.

You generally are being dismissive, not just "dismissing my anecdote". Women are frequently treated in a dismissive fashion by men. You dismiss my presumed hurt feelings over being misgendered as unimportant and something you cannot be bothered to put any effort into avoiding. You dismiss my accomplishments in gaining status on a predominantly male forum. You dismiss my "anecdote". And then you think that women should apparently be perfectly comfortable here in the face of you and thousands of other men like you being generally dismissive, disrespectful and insensitive towards them.

I don't imagine there is any hope of educating you as to why your behavior would drive off women and make them reluctant to participate here. But perhaps pointing it out will cast some light on the issue for other people.

Edit: And then you edit your comment to further dismiss my credentials as not helping my credibility. Just icing on the cake of a mountain of dismissiveness.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#126

Post by rewqfdsa »

rayiner wrote: post #123
rewqfdsa wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article isn't talking about taking away "exclusive access to jobs" from men. It's hinting at separating geek culture from software development. Let's be honest: the two interests correlate well. You're talking about stripping many practitioners of software development from their culture. Why is that just?

> You're talking about stripping many practitioners of software development from their culture. Why is that just? Why is it unjust? Why do you have to bring your personal interests and preferences into the workplace? Why not make a neutral workplace where different kinds of people can integrate and feel comfortable?

You're advocating for sterile, culture-less workplaces. You're free to do that, and companies are free to implement your proposed policies. Personally, I wouldn't work for a company that prohibited my expressing nerd culture.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#127

Post by rayiner »

rewqfdsa wrote: post #126
rayiner wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're talking about stripping many practitioners of software development from their culture. Why is that just? Why is it unjust? Why do you have to bring your personal interests and preferences into the workplace? Why not make a neutral workplace where different kinds of people can integrate and feel comfortable?

You're advocating for sterile, culture-less workplaces. You're free to do that, and companies are free to implement your proposed policies. Personally, I wouldn't work for a company that prohibited my expressing nerd culture.

Yes, I am. I think work places should be neutral places where the focus is on work. I'm a professional--I don't need to bond with my teammates over unrelated bullshit in order to work effectively with them.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#128

Post by rewqfdsa »

Mz wrote: post #125
rewqfdsa wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I am dismissing your anecdote as mere coincidence. I can't justify on an intellectual basis doing anything else. Am I supposed to just listen and believe? > I have formally and informally studied certain things about social psychology Your continuing reliance on credentials isn't helping your credibility.

You generally are being dismissive, not just "dismissing my anecdote". Women are frequently treated in a dismissive fashion by men. You dismiss my presumed hurt feelings over being misgendered as unimportant and something you cannot be bothered to put any effort into avoiding. You dismiss my accomplishments in gaining status on a predominantly male forum. You dismiss my "anecdote". And then you think that women shoul…

> Women are frequently treated in a dismissive fashion by men.

Everyone is treated in a dismissive fashioned by everyone. Only evidence and careful reasoning can rebut this default policy. You have presented none.

It galls me you interpret treatment that everyone receives as hostility directed toward the group to which you happen to belong. I am under no obligation to give additional weight to your argument merely because you are a woman. That you consider my dismissal of your unsupported claims is intellectually dishonest. You're smart enough to know better.

You're essentially claiming that everyone who doesn't accept your unsupported claims is sexist. You're free to do make this claim, but in doing so, you're crying wolf and weakening your cause.

You're right that I'm being dismissive. I'm also veering toward being disrespectful. That's not because you're a woman, but because you're demanding unearned special treatment. You're a technologist. Gaining status on a technologist's forum is no great accomplishment.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#129

Post by mpweiher »

jonesb6 wrote: post #56
jkyle wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet, somehow more boys are sufficiently interested that they find their interest more important than the negative feedback. In these scenarios, boys find groups that are supportive. In their case the video game playing, computer oriented, math/physics/etc. "nerds" are one such social group. The entire point of the article is that those same groups are not supportive for women and girls. It has nothing to do with th…

Being a software engineer I've been involved in this discussion for several years now. And I don't think it ever clicked with me so much as with this comment. Guys do find groups that are supportive, be it something like an MMO community, card game community, robotics clubs etc. While girls also exist in these domains they are pretty consistently outsiders. At older ages they will receive a ton of attention, much of…

> Previously when viewing a thread like this I would take

> a perspective of "It's not discrimination, they just

> don't want to do it".

Well, maybe that wasn't exactly wrong. Or rather, there are different motivations for entering the profession. For males "love of technology" is a much stronger motivating factor, whereas for females it is "job security", "ease of entry" and "flexible working hours" [1]. All other factors surveyed were not different.

When it comes to experience in the job, the only difference found was that women received greater support and mentoring from their superiors.[2].

This is from a study published in the Communications of the ACM as "Women and men in the IT profession"[3]. Although not as interesting an anecdote as the NY Times article, and not fitting the current narrative, the study does have actual data. It concludes that women and men in tech are more alike than different, that the primary difference coming in is "love of tech" vs "good benefits" and that the biggest difference when in the field is that women get slightly better support from their bosses.

Come on in, the water is fine!

[1] http://deliveryimages.acm.org/10.1145/1320000/1314229/figs/t...

[2] http://deliveryimages.acm.org/10.1145/1320000/1314229/figs/t...

[3] http://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2008/2/5453-women-and-men-in-t...

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#130

Post by rewqfdsa »

rayiner wrote: post #127
rewqfdsa wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're advocating for sterile, culture-less workplaces. You're free to do that, and companies are free to implement your proposed policies. Personally, I wouldn't work for a company that prohibited my expressing nerd culture.

Yes, I am. I think work places should be neutral places where the focus is on work. I'm a professional--I don't need to bond with my teammates over unrelated bullshit in order to work effectively with them.

I think sharing culture can create an esprit de corps, improving morale and group cohesion, especially in times of crisis.
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