The Unemployable Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#111

Post by gagbba » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:49 PM UTC

vegabook wrote: post #43

If you're in your late 20s and coding is all you've ever done, be afraid. Domain knowledge is where it's at. I am in a similar situation to the OP having started off with a ZX Spectrum, did CS, coded, but in my late 20s I was tempted into fixed income finance, and did that for 15 years at the highest level (unrelated to coding - I was a strategist and trader). Then in my late 30s I picked up Python, then R, and now k…

I have been interested in doing a similar thing for some time now. Can you drop me an e-mail if you could give me an insight into a couple of things I've been wondering about?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#112

Post by fweespeech » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:52 PM UTC

jcadam wrote: post #69

Hmm... I'm a 35 year old programmer and I work in Defense/Aerospace. If you think finding a good developer is hard, try finding a good developer who also holds a security clearance. If you're any good at all, you will always be employed and well compensated. The work can be dull, with Vogon-esque processes and procedures, but I have side projects to keep me sane :) Every couple of years (ok, at least every year) I'll…

> Every couple of years (ok, at least every year) I'll try to apply to non-defense jobs, and I get the impression that there's a glut of highly qualified engineers in the private sector -- "Sorry, we're being deluged with applications right now, we'll totally get back to you someday." And the interviews generally involve 3-4 rounds of hazing via Knuth. In the defense sector, they verify your clearance and credentials, check for a pulse, then show you to your desk.

> Some are interested until they hear my current salary "You'd have to be a 10x RockNinja to make that kind of salary here." Yes, even Silicon Valley companies (and I live in an area with a relatively low COL).

Its finding the company willing to sponsor and foot the bill for the clearance that is the trick. But yeah, I've noticed outside of E-Commerce, Defense & Finance, I'd like to leave my current position too...but I want something other than those three. I'm tired of being responsible for other people's financial data [e.g. Credit cards] or having a guy flip out because I got up to go to the bathroom and forgot to lock my screen. xD

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#113

Post by je_bailey » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:53 PM UTC

fweespeech wrote: post #109

mkozlows wrote: post #82

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. I've had about 40-50% of places reject me due to a lack of degree. A couple even sent me hopeful…

I think it's important to differentiate that it depends on the company and the field. For lack of a better phrase there are sexy companies and not so sexy companies in the IT world. They get different people applying to them and they have different wants. If you are looking at doing R&D at a startup software company, the competition is going to be far different than working at a medium sized independent insurance company

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#114

Post by wtbob » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:54 PM UTC

gexla wrote: post #52

I want to start dating. I put my profile up to dating sites. I spend much of my days sending messages to women's profiles. I take their personality tests, but I never get messages (or replies to mine) even though I'm sure I get matches. I even started looking at niche sites such as "nerd dating..." Dude, just get out and actually talk to women. I'm not going to say how to get gigs, jobs, etc because I'm out of my lea…

> Dude, just get out and actually talk to women.

That's a lot easier said than done.

The parallel with employment is actually not bad: one doesn't find a job by approaching random offices asking for work any more than one finds a wife by asking random if they would like to get hitched (yes, some small number of people succeed with both approaches); one often finds a job by being introduced to the right opportunity by people who know of those opportunities. Now, those introducers might be recruiters (matchmakers) or people one has worked with before (friends), but at the end of the day it's all about networking.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#115

Post by drfritznunkie » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:56 PM UTC

speeder wrote: post #60

What about people that instead NEVER had a job? I got my degree in 2009, at the height of the crisis (for now at least... here in Brazil the crisis of 2009 is finally getting worse), I NEVER had a legal job, all the stuff I put in LinkedIn were semi-legal or outright illegal stuff (or my startup). Also my programming language of choice were clearly a poor choice, I learned C, and C++ and whatnot when I was a kid (I w…

How are they poor choices? Methinks you're just looking in wrong places if they're languages you want to continue using at a job.

Embedded is hot right now, so sign up for the Jack Ganssle's Embedded Muse Newsletter http://www.ganssle.com/tem-subunsub.html. The jobs are going to be mostly US based, but some place to start.

And look for companies that you know are going to be using C/CPP from their products. Even if they don't have jobs posted, find someone on the engineering team via GH, FB, LinkedIn, their blogs, guessing their email address, conferences, where ever and email them a nice note talking about their products and how you'd love to work with them if they have a position open.

If you can engineer a piece of code, I feel you can also socially engineer your way to a contact somewhere you want to work.

Else if you really want to be some "rockstar" web developer (and I only ever use that term as a pejorative), then start using a relevant language, and learn how to talk to employers about how your deep C/CPP experience is actually an advantage that no other diploma-mill code-school grad is going to have.

It's never more depressing then when you've hauled in a candidate for a review because they've got great past experience, but the candidate has zero ability to relate that experience to conversation at hand.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#116

Post by hodwik » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:56 PM UTC

igth wrote: post #41

Reading stories like these really, really scares me. I'm European, and next year my wife and I will most likely move to the US together (long story short: she is a US citizen, we have decided to move, and have already applied). I'm super excited about that. I currently work as a Rails developer, have a diverse background as a Linux sysadmin and developer, and have never had problems finding (or keeping) work where I…

If you're moving to a city you'll be fine.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#117

Post by MagicWishMonkey » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 1:59 PM UTC

mkozlows wrote: post #82

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

Agreed. Sounds like there's something else at play with this guys inability to find work. Maybe he doesn't interview very well?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#118

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 2:02 PM UTC

fmsf wrote: post #56

duggan wrote: post #44

> Being able to get work in this field without a fancy background is still possible, but only if you have the right connections. Like I said: it's no longer sufficient to be able to do the job This sentiment regularly comes up on HN, and I find it a little exasperating. Human interaction has always been an important part of career. There's a subtle (or not so subtle) contempt for soft skills in these laments. You can…

In most cases we need to sort CVs somehow. If we sort by degree there is a high chance that someone in the top 10 fits the position. Interviewing dozens of candidates is very resource consuming. I can emphasise with his story, but is all game of numbers in the end.

[deleted]

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#119

Post by je_bailey » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 2:03 PM UTC

Besides some of the other advice offered. You're probably looking in the wrong place.

Anecdotal story: I found myself working at a warranty company and a friend of mine worked at a specialized software company. We got together one day for drinks and lamented the fact that we had problems finding the right people. His problem was that everyone who applied was fresh out of college and had no true hands on experience, where he wanted senior programmers. My problem was that everyone who applied had a Masters or Doctorate degree and was applying for mid level/entry position.

If you're finding yourself unemployable in a particular area, you're probably right. More than likely though, you could find an excellent job at a company that isn't directly a traditional tech company. Every company in the world now needs to have an IT strategy of some sort. With an IT department of some sort. And I can guarantee that there are enough out there who are just looking for experience that they would hire you on the spot. The problem though is reaching out and finding them.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#120

Post by robodale » Mon, Aug 03, 2015, 2:05 PM UTC

Where in the world does the author live??? I live in the Upper Midwest USA, and there is no shortage of local jobs at banks, health care, tech companies, and the one-off positions at obscure businesses. Now, hanging my programmer shingle out on the internet and Jesus - there are remote jobs pouring in from everywhere who pay even more.

I've got a Mechanical Engineering and Masters degree, 14 years dev experience on multiple stacks, so that does help my resume look nice, but shit man. Businesses are dying looking for qualified people.