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This Industry is Fucked

blog.jessfraz.com

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Re: This Industry is Fucked

#111

Post by astrocyte »

alaroldai wrote: post #80

Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss." And that makes me so angry. Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgust…

It makes you angry to think? Is this the modern day internet in which lots of individuals say stupid things to get a rise out of people (troll for the lulz)? or is it a tech industry problem

Turn your base emotions off for a second and try to use your higher level brain facilities to target the actual root of this.

I'm an african-american in tech. Lots has happened to me. What has ever happened to you such that you can relate?

So, you're emotional.. angry about someone trolling a woman. So, you're going to go on an irrational rampage and fight any man to death who tries to bring clarity to the issue beyond your emotional white knighting?

Cheers man.. you're no better than the trolls who function on the same base instinct. Rise above it. This isn't the stone-age.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#112

Post by aikah »

chipx86 wrote: post #18

Kudos to her for standing up to it, but she should clearly never have to. This kind of thing just shouldn't be happening... I don't think I know anybody who does this to women. I really hope that's because I don't actually know anyone who does, and not that people I otherwise respect are secretly doing this. How would a person know, if it's anonymous? Well, maybe a few ways. The question is, are these all actually an…

> Basically, create a sort of tech industry predator list

People with your blacklists, you never learn...

> The last thing I'd want is a witch hunt,

That's exactly what it is.

If one get abused,one must report it, contact someone in the business involved and even file a complain at the nearest police station. But lynch mobs on the internet ,no. If a business doesn't do enough against harassment then expose it. But don't go after individuals and ruin their lives because "internet justice".

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#113

Post by alaroldai »

TTPrograms wrote: post #99
alaroldai wrote: post #80

Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss." And that makes me so angry. Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgust…

>That should be enough to tell you that even if the majority are lovely people, the industry as a whole still has a problem. Is that really the case, though? If there's a violent criminal in a town, does the town as a whole have problem? Is the whole town to blame for the acts of that individual? We should do what we can to stop this sort of abuse and make things better, but why do we have to spend so much time alloc…

If we're doing what we can to stop this sort of abuse, there's nothing to blame us for.

If we're spending our time trying to sweep these issues under the rug, maybe there is.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#114

Post by Frondo »

jazzyk wrote: post #81
Frondo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This, this, a thousand times this. I have a few female programmer friends, and they only ever spoke about "well, you know, not too many women in the field" in careful, guarded tones. Until the Adria Richards thing happened, and I said something like "I don't really think either of them should have been fired, but I also think it's shitty how common those stupid sexual jokes are. I wish we could get past that stuff."…

Please do not bring the Adria story again - she made a fuss because of an adolescent joke she overheard two rows behind her in a private conversation, which was NOT DIRECTED AT HER, and was not about females or sexual or any other interaction with females. All the same while making crass jokes herself in her social media accounts. As opposed to this case, where some sickos clearly send very troubling messages DIRECTL…

Aaaaand, our two divergent reactions to the Adria Richards story is probably why these friends of mine (the female programmers) probably felt like they could trust me with the stories of their experiences;

e.g. I'm not going to tell them they're wrong, I'm not going to try and reinterpret their stories...I'm just going to listen.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#115

Post by generic_user »

alaroldai wrote: post #80

Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss." And that makes me so angry. Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgust…

>Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgusted and threatened. That should be enough to tell you that even if the majority are lovely people, the industry as a whole still has a problem.

There is not one "person in this industry" that was named or identified here. To project that anonymous internet trolls are "the tech industry" says more about how you view the tech industry then the industry itself or the people in it. What needs to stop is blanked condemnations of an industry, any industry because someone gets nasty tweets or emails. I got nasty email therefore the tech industry is responsible is not credible. Anyone regardless of who you are or what you do can end up with a mailbox full of nasty emails for innumerable reasons.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#116

Post by alaroldai »

mholt wrote: post #103
alaroldai wrote: post #80

Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss." And that makes me so angry. Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgust…

> It may seem counterintuitive, but the fastest and most effective way to stop posts like this turning up is actually to make more of them, until the harassment and abuse stop. You have evidence to back this up? Honest question.

Actually, no. But I can't believe that ignoring the issue is going to be more helpful than bringing attention to it.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#117

Post by chipsy »

chipx86 wrote: post #18

Kudos to her for standing up to it, but she should clearly never have to. This kind of thing just shouldn't be happening... I don't think I know anybody who does this to women. I really hope that's because I don't actually know anyone who does, and not that people I otherwise respect are secretly doing this. How would a person know, if it's anonymous? Well, maybe a few ways. The question is, are these all actually an…

Practically speaking, this has happened among SJ activists using social media; see for example the "Block Bot", "call-out culture," et al.

What has been observed is that the harassment doesn't "go away", so much as metamorphose into indirect forms. Now when abusers get attacked, they weaponize their own victimhood into a backlash, suddenly sending out dozens of messages that build up a sympathetic story. They bury their past by opening a new account, but openly declare themselves to be the same person, so as to bring along their entourage. They threaten suicide to raise the stakes(and in most such cases, they are actually unstable enough for this to be a serious concern). Abusers can be popular despite evidence against them, through a mix of propaganda, misinformation, and well-meaning onlookers who thoughtlessly share. There are many gambits that allow you to be an awful person with few penalties.

For this reason, many of my friends who were or considered being involved in activist efforts have gotten burned and would prefer not to be visible at all. The rest of them indicate some of the personality traits that allow them to tolerate or thrive off of sustained abuse, despite its toxicity.

I currently believe that the Internet is too dangerous to broadcast open thoughts on, but it has an alternate possibility of suggesting those thoughts without saying them. The wise will find the wise without anyone being the wiser.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#118

Post by rdrake98 »

shoeluckpotland wrote: post #104

I have a small theory about harassment in tech. Posting from a throwaway, as I have been threatened myself. I know many women in technology. Some have experienced some truly vile online harassment. Almost all of which is conducted online, anonymously. Not in-person. Instead, it is rape threats via email. Tweets from pseudo-anonymous accounts. Almost never something that can be attached to a real person. I do not doub…

Agreed. And this technique of divide and rule has been used elsewhere. The key word being rule.

Re: This Industry is Fucked

#120

Post by [deleted] »

alaroldai wrote: post #80

Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss." And that makes me so angry. Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgust…

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