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Why do people waste so much time at work?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#111

Post by philh »

Delmania wrote: post #97
floppydisk wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was nothing "socialist" about Jamestown. Many of the initial settlers were aristocrats who had no experience of work, and no interest in it. The parent's quote specifically proposed the notion of people not working. This doesn't disprove the argument or address the point about the structure of Jamestown's initial income distribution mechanism. > We already have a culture like this. Those who believe they own…

The claim that Jamestown was "saved by capitalism" is the typical libertarian/conservative story touted out in discussions about socialism and capitalism. The situation was a lot more nuanced than that. The setup of Jamestown as between the Crown and the investors, not the colonists, who were essentially indentured servants for 7 years. Also, the climate was not right for the types of crops the colonists were trying…

> The situation was a lot more nuanced than that. The setup of Jamestown as between the Crown and the investors, not the colonists, who were essentially indentured servants for 7 years. Also, the climate was not right for the types of crops the colonists were trying to grow, and as someone else mentioned, the settlers were not accustomed to the environment.

I don't know anything about Jamestown, but... this kind of feels like you're giving more detail, but it's detail that doesn't really contradict the original narrative?

At any rate, I took the original narrative to be: originally the workers received the same amount of stuff regardless of how much they worked, and that went badly. Then the workers started to receive more for working harder, that went better. And your version seems to be consistent with that, even if there were other factors making things difficult for the colony. Like they're two different stories, set in the same universe but focused on different things. One is a history and one is a snapshot, and the snapshot adds more detail but doesn't mean the history is wrong.

That's the impression I'm getting of the two narratives here. I remain ignorant of the actual facts.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#112

Post by juliangregorian »

msellout wrote: post #31
_pmf_ wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then what about distribution of these resources? The point is that this is an entirely separate question. On a global scale, it's hard to find a worse distribution scheme than the currently used scheme, so any arbitrary distribution is better than the current one (in which the powerful take increasingly more).

On a global scale? I thought all those Hans Rosling "Mind the Gap" videos were telling us the world is increasingly equal.

It's only that way when you say things like "Most of the world has a cell phone, while the Caesars couldn't have even imagined it".

Meanwhile, the world's wealth becomes increasingly concentrated at the top.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#113

Post by lsaferite »

douche wrote: post #70
floppydisk wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We tried this idea, in America, at the Jamestown Colony. They initially established it in a "socialist" vein wherein everyone received an equal share of the proceeds (food, etc) regardless of their contributions to the colony. The colony barely survived because people lacked the incentive to work and produce because there was no advantage to them working more than their peers. Why should I work to produce an excess w…

I support the idea of a basic income, but only if it is a replacement for the system of piecemeal welfare programs and tax-breaks that we currently have. The entire system could get so much simpler than it currently is. You get your basic income check for X dollars a month. If you work a job, run a business, whatever, in addition to that, you get taxed Y% on your earnings, excluding the basic income amount. No deduct…

I'd suggest replacing an income tax with a sales tax though. One 'punishes' earning, the other 'punishes' spending. Additionally you simplify enforcement by narrowing the collection points considerably. Talk about simple, you don't ever files taxes as an individual.

That mixed with basic income is a good plan from my non-economist POV.

I've sure someone far smarter that I can explain why I'm amazingly naïve.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#114

Post by jeza »

Anderkent wrote: post #73
douche wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support the idea of a basic income, but only if it is a replacement for the system of piecemeal welfare programs and tax-breaks that we currently have. The entire system could get so much simpler than it currently is. You get your basic income check for X dollars a month. If you work a job, run a business, whatever, in addition to that, you get taxed Y% on your earnings, excluding the basic income amount. No deduct…

Of course some people need more than just basic income to survive - if your medical expenses are 10x basic income, and you cut out all other welfare, how are those people meant to compensate? There are some kinds of welfare that you can replace with basic income, but not all of them.

I gather you could still have something like Medicare (Australia) with a basic income. It's administrated entirely separately from welfare.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#115

Post by jotm »

jnbiche wrote: post #37
jotm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cool story bro. Say that again when you can't pay your rent or even buy some food." - Me. I think everyone should experience that for a few weeks, it changes your perspective on many things.

The quote does not imply this is the way things are , it's talking about what he believes things should be . Yes, of course many people have to work nonsense jobs now or else they'd starve, but that's because we don't have anything like basic income. With basic income, the lack of food and shelter you refer to wouldn't be an issue -- at least for citizens of the country with basic income.

I agree that basic income would be a godsend. It would remove most of the basic fears that people have, giving them more freedom than ever.

But is it gonna happen? I don't see how it's going to work, maybe a few experiments here and there, but it will take a massive shift in thinking (especially for those in power, with the money/power) to make it a reality for everyone...

In the meantime, people will have to compete not only with each other, but also with robots to get a job, any job...

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#116

Post by philh »

juliangregorian wrote: post #110
floppydisk wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was nothing "socialist" about Jamestown. Many of the initial settlers were aristocrats who had no experience of work, and no interest in it. The parent's quote specifically proposed the notion of people not working. This doesn't disprove the argument or address the point about the structure of Jamestown's initial income distribution mechanism. > We already have a culture like this. Those who believe they own…

It's well known that, once you acquire enough money, you can live off the proceeds of that money. If you inherited a million dollars and put it in bog-standard funds, you'd get ~$75,000 a year for doing absolutely nothing. How that factors into your theory, I'd love to know.

In (at least) two ways. One, you'd be lending wealth to other people so that they can create more wealth. Without your investment, less wealth would be created. Two, your parents acquired money by producing wealth, and one of the things that they chose to spend that money on was their progeny.

(NB. This does not claim that the allocation of money for value produced is perfectly fair, or just, or economically optimal, or whatever.)

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#117

Post by mcphage »

floppydisk wrote: post #55
Foomandoonian wrote: post #12

"We must do away with the absolutely specious notion that everybody has to earn a living. It is a fact today that one in ten thousand of us can make a technological breakthrough capable of supporting all the rest. The youth of today are absolutely right in recognizing this nonsense of earning a living. We keep inventing jobs because of this false idea that everybody has to be employed at some kind of drudgery because…

We tried this idea, in America, at the Jamestown Colony. They initially established it in a "socialist" vein wherein everyone received an equal share of the proceeds (food, etc) regardless of their contributions to the colony. The colony barely survived because people lacked the incentive to work and produce because there was no advantage to them working more than their peers. Why should I work to produce an excess w…

"We tried it once 400 years ago, and it didn't work then, so clearly it won't ever work."

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#118

Post by jotm »

sagichmal wrote: post #41
jotm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cool story bro. Say that again when you can't pay your rent or even buy some food." - Me. I think everyone should experience that for a few weeks, it changes your perspective on many things.

You completely miss the point of the quoted passage. You should read it again.

No, I get it, I wish it was true. I also like to dream of a world where each person/family has their own group of robots that do the basic hard work for them, leaving them to pursue creativity, research and development of new things, explore the unexplored.

But the reality is that people are selfish and don't really want to see others succeed.

They spend more money on luxury cars, houses and technology that benefits only them. Charity donations make up a small part of it, and that's mostly because it makes people feel better about themselves (if only more realized this).

Their money sit in banks, being lent to other people under sometimes outrageous terms, and they buy land and resources that they don't allow others to use, claiming it belongs to them and they're storing it for "the future", even though they know very well they're going to die in a few decades and none of it will really matter.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#119

Post by AndrewKemendo »

juliangregorian wrote: post #110
floppydisk wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There was nothing "socialist" about Jamestown. Many of the initial settlers were aristocrats who had no experience of work, and no interest in it. The parent's quote specifically proposed the notion of people not working. This doesn't disprove the argument or address the point about the structure of Jamestown's initial income distribution mechanism. > We already have a culture like this. Those who believe they own…

It's well known that, once you acquire enough money, you can live off the proceeds of that money. If you inherited a million dollars and put it in bog-standard funds, you'd get ~$75,000 a year for doing absolutely nothing. How that factors into your theory, I'd love to know.

Not the OP but your assumption is that 1. That "investment" mechanism will hold up forever and 2. That you don't put that money in the system at the wrong time assuming it is a random walk.

Re: Why do people waste so much time at work?

#120

Post by normloman »

Before we get into a discussion about basic income and drones making us obsolete, can we talk about cutting hours? First, lets get back to the standard 40 hour work week. That'd be a big step. And after that, can some of us work less? Half of my day is spent browsing the internet out of boredom. I'd get more done if the day was shorter. Better yet, let me telecommute and set my own hours. You'll get the same results out of me, if not better, and I'll be a happier fellow.
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